Anyone still glued to this?

[CelticRambler]

Jeeeez, PureIsle!

You've been hitting the Kremlin Kool-aid hard today - real Flashback Friday stuff there.

All debunked several times over in the last year, but sure if it helps you cope with the generally positive news leaking out of Ukraine, then stick with it.

Oh, by the way - the Ukrainians must have heard your plea for them to make a statement, and released this video for you yesterday:

[Del.Monte]

Personally, I don't believe anything from either side about what's going on out there and I'll stick with the BBC for the truth. If the West had invested 10% of the effort that has gone into tooling up Ukraine into stopping the war, peace would have broken out long ago. The West will keep on poking Russia until they resort to using a tactical nuke and calling Biden's bluff. What about Micheal Martin's nonsense about how Ireland could be an honest broker.....and the Irish government hell bent on dragging the country into NATO.

[PureIsle]

Jeeeez, PureIsle!

You've been hitting the Kremlin Kool-aid hard today - real Flashback Friday stuff there.

All debunked several times over in the last year, but sure if it helps you cope with the generally positive news leaking out of Ukraine, then stick with it.

What has been debunked and by whom?
Would you care to get specific, or is it just more of "shoot the messenger" and ignore the message because you cannot deal with it?

Oh, by the way - the Ukrainians must have heard your plea for them to make a statement, and released this video for you yesterday:

[media]h ttps://youtu.be/LZsvBOZ0Qas[/media]

I made no plea.
I pointed out the lack of info from Ukr and you have just confirmed it, thanks.
They have nothing good to say so they stay dumb. Probably the most intelligent decision they have made these last 18 months.

[PureIsle]

I found this an interesting short video.
If anyone has a link to a similar short video with a Ukr soldier I would love to see it.

[Del.Monte]

Interesting, but as the "cocky lawyer" said you can't believe the media coverage - from either side.

[Setanta]

What has been debunked and by whom?
Would you care to get specific, or is it just more of "shoot the messenger" and ignore the message because you cannot deal with it?




I made no plea.
I pointed out the lack of info from Ukr and you have just confirmed it, thanks.
They have nothing good to say so they stay dumb. Probably the most intelligent decision they have made these last 18 months.

Usually one would take the lack of info coming from inside,as a sign of strong internal security,decision makers agreed course of action, removal of weakness/spies from ranks and commitment from its forces.....which would align with fact Russia hasn't hit a Ukrainian arms depot of note in weeks,despite large movements of it near enough front line



Loose lips sink ships kid, Ukraine may struggle militarily over next few years to oust Russia (NATO supplied tanks without air defence/superiority is going aswell as predicted),but critism of its ability to retain military secrecy is downright silly

[4524689]

I think anyone who is expecting Ukraine to be discussing status updates with anyone other than their internal military command structures and officials where necessary has unrealistic expectations.

The best we can expect is to hear of successes on the battlefields once the disclosure of relevant strengths and movements of infantry/artillery and so on will no longer provide Russia with any kind of insights.

Ukraine are in the midst of fighting for their liberation. A propaganda war isn’t top priority for them right now. There are plenty of Ukrainian military commentators ridiculing the total BS coming from their neighbours (see Operator Starsky on YouTube as one example), but it’s not glossing over the harsh reality of this war and the fact they’re dying every day in battle. Russia on the other hand must wage that propaganda war on the truth both at home and on the international stage to try to keep Russian civilians and soldiers on message.

TLDR; Russia need to keep up the pretence they’re winning, Ukraine is too busy trying to actually win to be telling the world how they’re going about it. They’re not idiots. If you want them to do otherwise, you need a head exam.

[PureIsle]

I think anyone who is expecting Ukraine to be discussing status updates with anyone other than their internal military command structures and officials where necessary has unrealistic expectations.

The best we can expect is to hear of successes on the battlefields once the disclosure of relevant strengths and movements of infantry/artillery and so on will no longer provide Russia with any kind of insights.

So the absence of those announcements of success from Ukr should tell us all that there are no battlefield successes worth a mention. Else it would be plastered all over Western media, as well as hyped up by the Ukr authorities.

Ukraine are in the midst of fighting for their liberation. A propaganda war isn’t top priority for them right now. There are plenty of Ukrainian military commentators ridiculing the total BS coming from their neighbours (see Operator Starsky on YouTube as one example), but it’s not glossing over the harsh reality of this war and the fact they’re dying every day in battle. Russia on the other hand must wage that propaganda war on the truth both at home and on the international stage to try to keep Russian civilians and soldiers on message.

TLDR; Russia need to keep up the pretence they’re winning, Ukraine is too busy trying to actually win to be telling the world how they’re going about it. They’re not idiots. If you want them to do otherwise, you need a head exam.

Ukr are losing men and equipment at a terrible rate, while presently making no appreciable gains.
You might refer to that as 'winning' but I would not.
That is not to say that Ukr does not have the capability to make gains. They most certainly do.
I do not believe they can end this victorious, for reasons I have previously posted. I have not read or seen anything to dissuade me of that opinion - yet.

According to all I have read and seen on updated maps, Ukr forces have not even reached the first line of defence built by the Russians. Ukr are still trying to get past the mine fields in the areas in front of the defensive positions.
It is notable that the Ru forces step back at times and cede some ground but then go forward again to engage the Ukr forces.
The most movement I have seen indicates that Ukr has gained some 3 (or maybe 4 depending on the day you look) tiny villages.

I do expect a large movement of Ukr forces in the coming days, which will in some parts I think, get as far as the first defensive line of the Ru. I have my doubts the Ukr will overcome those prepared defenses, but shear weight of numbers might do it. They will then have more mine fields to contend with before they reach the second defensive line.
All the while the Ukr are trying this they will be hammered by shells, mines, UAVs and aircraft all with heavy weapons. If things turn out that way there will be many more thousands dead for a gain of a few Kms!

Ukr should have set up their own defensive lines and tried to encourage the Russians to attack them. At least then they would be fighting in places of their own choosing.

[4524689]

Q.E.D., essentially.

[Setanta]

I think anyone who is expecting Ukraine to be discussing status updates with anyone other than their internal military command structures and officials where necessary has unrealistic expectations.

The best we can expect is to hear of successes on the battlefields once the disclosure of relevant strengths and movements of infantry/artillery and so on will no longer provide Russia with any kind of insights.

Ukraine are in the midst of fighting for their liberation. A propaganda war isn’t top priority for them right now. There are plenty of Ukrainian military commentators ridiculing the total BS coming from their neighbours (see Operator Starsky on YouTube as one example), but it’s not glossing over the harsh reality of this war and the fact they’re dying every day in battle. Russia on the other hand must wage that propaganda war on the truth both at home and on the international stage to try to keep Russian civilians and soldiers on message.

TLDR; Russia need to keep up the pretence they’re winning, Ukraine is too busy trying to actually win to be telling the world how they’re going about it. They’re not idiots. If you want them to do otherwise, you need a head exam.

Ukraine are too busy for propaganda,that's why their dept of defence was releasing videos of Harry potter characters in CGI into Ukraine military uniforms 2 weeks ago

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailys ... 084568.amp



Surely Russia is only doing what's expected as.they rinse Ukrainian tanks/troops carriers who aren't air supported,like Ukraine has done to them since the first day of the war??......the days of tank warfare are over,the fact these tanks were pushed onto Ukraine by the US/NATO members and it's desperate pleas for no fly zone/airplanes were laughed off....should surely raise eyebrows of any reasonable person?

[4524689]

[PureIsle]

Remarking that there was no agreement to keep this private, Putin, to the African peace delegation, explained how at the beginning of SMO, when Ru military surrounded Kiev, a peace deal was agreed by Kiev representatives with the condition that Ru pulled out its military from Kiev.
The negotiations of this draft treaty were facilitated by President Erdogan.
The Ru forces were withdrawn and then Ukr reneged on the deal.

Putin showed pages of documents initialed by Kiev representatives!

Kiev claimed they had pushed RF military out and won the battle for Kiev!

More lies and deceit from Ukr and its western string pullers.

[PureIsle]

Part of Putin's address to the African contingent.

Expires in 2 days:-

[4524689]

Remarking that there was no agreement to keep this private, Putin, to the African peace delegation, explained how at the beginning of SMO, when Ru military surrounded Kiev, a peace deal was agreed by Kiev representatives with the condition that Ru pulled out its military from Kiev.
The negotiations of this draft treaty were facilitated by President Erdogan.
The Ru forces were withdrawn and then Ukr reneged on the deal.

Putin showed pages of documents initialed by Kiev representatives!

Kiev claimed they had pushed RF military out and won the battle for Kiev!

More lies and deceit from Ukr and its western string pullers.

SHOCK WOW BIG NEWS WOW!

RUSSIA SHOW PAPER AND SAY KIEV CHEATED THEM BECAUSE THEY SAY IT'S TRUE INTIALS WOW WOW WEE WAH WOW.

MUST BE TRUE BECAUSE PUTIN SAYS IT IS TO NEWS CAMERA.

Would you even get a bit of cop on. Posting that shite is just endorsing the obvious lies. You lament the lack of Ukranian updates, while constantly regurgitating all the hokum crap you can find in favour of some justification for what Russia are doing. It's really worrying if we've reached the stage where people can't even see that THAT stuff is a line of crap. If they're incapable of seeing that, they'll never stand a chance against advancements in AI feeding them the most ridiculous of fake news.

Kiev didn't sign a secret peace deal with Russia, negotiated by Erdogan. If you believe that, I've a lightly used railway bridge I'm looking to sell and you're just the right person to buy it.

[Setanta]

SHOCK WOW BIG NEWS WOW!

RUSSIA SHOW PAPER AND SAY KIEV CHEATED THEM BECAUSE THEY SAY IT'S TRUE INTIALS WOW WOW WEE WAH WOW.

MUST BE TRUE BECAUSE PUTIN SAYS IT IS TO NEWS CAMERA.

Would you even get a bit of cop on. Posting that shite is just endorsing the obvious lies. You lament the lack of Ukranian updates, while constantly regurgitating all the hokum crap you can find in favour of some justification for what Russia are doing. It's really worrying if we've reached the stage where people can't even see that THAT stuff is a line of crap. If they're incapable of seeing that, they'll never stand a chance against advancements in AI feeding them the most ridiculous of fake news.

Kiev didn't sign a secret peace deal with Russia, negotiated by Erdogan. If you believe that, I've a lightly used railway bridge I'm looking to sell and you're just the right person to buy it.

Whether it was ever signed or not is another qs,but there was most certainly a peace deal upon the table....roughly along the lines as suggested here,negociated in istanbul and would like up with timeline suggested.. ....it's no big secret or revelation however??

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... otiations/


It's known with a while now,many diplomats in US and Germany have grown weary of Ukraines lies which have attempted to drag them & NATO into the conflict....but still feel their input:reward ratio is in their favour

[4524689]

Whether it was ever signed or not is another qs,but there was most certainly a peace deal upon the table....roughly along the lines as suggested here,negociated in istanbul and would like up with timeline suggested.. ....it's no big secret or revelation however??

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... otiations/


It's known with a while now,many diplomats in US and Germany have grown weary of Ukraines lies which have attempted to drag them & NATO into the conflict....but still feel their input:reward ratio is in their favour

I know of the attempts to negotiate a deal early on. The world does. Putin showing papers saying a deal was done though? Pffft. Give me a break man. Never happened.

And as for diplomats in US and Germany yadda yadda yadda... Not interested in any gossip and rumour fueled opinions relating to diplomatic affairs between western states engaged in the defence of a country being invaded by Russia. There are formal channels and none of us are part of them. Russia and her aligned supporters will be sowing seeds of doubt, conspiracy and all the rest, all the time.

Wouldn't surprise me if much of what we're seeing being barfed up on this thread come from those very efforts.

[Setanta]

I know of the attempts to negotiate a deal early on. The world does. Putin showing papers saying a deal was done though? Pffft. Give me a break man. Never happened.

And as for diplomats in US and Germany yadda yadda yadda... Not interested in any gossip and rumour fueled opinions relating to diplomatic affairs between western states engaged in the defence of a country being invaded by Russia. There are formal channels and none of us are part of them. Russia and her aligned supporters will be sowing seeds of doubt, conspiracy and all the rest, all the time.

Wouldn't surprise me if much of what we're seeing being barfed up on this thread come from those very efforts.

You know of the attempts,and want any suggestion it was signed shouted down??
It's fairly easily confirmed/denied,as turkey is an 3rd party and can vouch as regards it's authenticness,it would surely upon the evidence thus far,seem to be credible???....whether Russia took.naive view that Ukraine would sign and withdrew in anticipation seems to be the only thing remaining in doubt to my eyes anyway,(outside of a clarification via turkey)


You don't think the politics and rumours of unease behind those propping up the Ukraine army are worthy of interest....do you lack any reasonable concept,that perhaps the media is lying to you,ala the initial 100% gaurantee Russia blew up its main source of income from Europe??



You don't honestly believe a thread viewed by at most a dozen people in a forum with at most roughly 30 user's and 30 visitors daily is a conduit for russian misinformation .....an extremely poor use of russian resources if so,what's said here will have zero influence either way on the war....it's like the clowns in pubs shushing for a rugby kicker on the TV

[isha]

In terms of world events we are ALL clowns in pubs shushing over a kick of a ball on the telly. It's a very apt metaphor for the life of us hi-tech peasants.

[PureIsle]

It continues to sadden me that some posters who wish to disagree with another's post, invariably seem to resort to hyperbole with claims of debunking and downright lies but never seem to be prepared to support what they post in disagreement.
I see the same trends in other threads ... over-excited responses because someone holds a different view to theirs.

Is this the way these people behave when actually meeting others, or is it that they only meet people who fully agree with their opinion and thus never have their opinion challenged by an opposing one?

I actually miss discussions over a few pints where different opinions could be expressed and verbally argued.
I suppose most of those discussions took place between mature people who were capable of having a discussion without losing their composure.

Good old days!

[PureIsle]

To clarify the matter of the draft agreement between RF and Ukr ...

what Putin showed was the draft of what was agreed.
The draft was initialled by the representative of Ukr to signify that the content was agreed.
This is standard behaviour between parties of an agreement.
This draft was to become a treaty between the parties when finalised.
Essentially it was the Minsk agreement with added detail regarding military strength of Ukr.

As the Ukr representatives also had a copy of this agreement and brought it back to Kiev, then if Ukr claims some part of it is false, let them show how.
There is also a list of countries who went guarantor and they too will have a copy.
There is nothing secret about it at all.

The only thing that got clarified for me was why Ru pulled their forces back from Kiev at the time.
I am still not convinced that the reason given - it was part of doing this deal - is the one and only reason. It might have influenced it but I am of the opinion that there were insufficient Ru forces in the area to make any real impact.

It is very difficult to get through the propaganda (from both sides) to the actual facts. Maybe we never will.

[CelticRambler]

To clarify the matter of the draft agreement between RF and Ukr ...

what Putin showed was the draft of what was agreed.

To further clarify: what Putin showed was a document that he - and he alone - claimed was a draft of an agreement made more than a year ago, and which he, for no good reason, has kept out of the public eye until now.

Given that every statement made and every document produced by and on behalf of Putin in the last two years has been shown, proven and demonstrated to be false, why should we believe him now?

Funnily enough, the publicly available version of the document (circulated back in the autumn) laid out the terms of an agreement which required Putin to pull back his forces. He decided instead to pursue his colonial expansion and tore up the agreement. Like he's done with every other agreement he's signed in the last twenty years regarding the status of Ukraine.

[CelticRambler]

It is very difficult to get through the propaganda (from both sides) to the actual facts. Maybe we never will.

It's really not that difficult. There are more than enough "open" sources of information available to corroborate most of what's claimed/alleged/reported/denied by both sides. And one side is consistently found to be spewing continuous BS that some people inexplicably find more "credible" than the alternative.

[PureIsle]

To further clarify: what Putin showed was a document that he - and he alone - claimed was a draft of an agreement made more than a year ago, and which he, for no good reason, has kept out of the public eye until now.

Given that every statement made and every document produced by and on behalf of Putin in the last two years has been shown, proven and demonstrated to be false, why should we believe him now?

Funnily enough, the publicly available version of the document (circulated back in the autumn) laid out the terms of an agreement which required Putin to pull back his forces. He decided instead to pursue his colonial expansion and tore up the agreement. Like he's done with every other agreement he's signed in the last twenty years regarding the status of Ukraine.

Not even Ukrainians agree with this

The demonstrated draft of the Istanbul Treaty was dated April 15, 2022. Earlier, the media reported that it had been initialed on March 29. That is, the date we see on the treaty is already after the withdrawal of the Russian army from Kiev and after Bucha.

The most interesting thing is that according to the information I received from Ukraine, everything happened exactly as the Russian media reported.

First an agreement was reached, with Russia largely going along with the Ukrainian proposals except for the main issues, Russia received the Ukrainian version of the treaty on March 29, then the withdrawal of troops from under Kiev took place, followed by a staged Bucha, Boris Johnson arrived in Kiev (April 7), and Ukraine withdrew from the treaty unilaterally.

And the withdrawal of troops from near Kiev was, as Peskov said, a goodwill gesture. I would add that it was a gesture of goodwill, but in accordance with the preliminary agreements. It is just that the final version was signed on April 15.

It also became known that the document is called "The Treaty on the Permanent Neutrality and Security Guarantees of Ukraine".

Ukraine's neutrality is mentioned in the first paragraph of the first article. The next paragraph says that the guarantor states recognize, respect and guarantee the status of Ukraine as a permanently neutral state, they are obliged to ensure compliance with this status.

The guarantor states in the preamble are Russia, the United States, France, Great Britain and China. Ukraine "undertakes not to carry out activities that would contradict the international legal status of permanent neutrality." The treaty was supposed to be signed by Russia, Ukraine, and all guarantor countries.

I have attached a table with figures on Ukraine's obligations to reduce the size of its armed forces.

- Oleg Tsaryov, an ex-politician from Ukraine.

Maybe Ukrainians should get together and decide what 'story' they are going to run with before some actually tell some truths.

[PureIsle]

Jeeeez, PureIsle!

You've been hitting the Kremlin Kool-aid hard today - real Flashback Friday stuff there.

All debunked several times over in the last year, but sure if it helps you cope with the generally positive news leaking out of Ukraine, then stick with it.

I am still waiting for all the information you will supply that bolsters your claim that all I posted had been debunked.

Will it ever appear? Does it exist?

[Setanta]

To further clarify: what Putin showed was a document that he - and he alone - claimed was a draft of an agreement made more than a year ago, and which he, for no good reason, has kept out of the public eye until now.

Given that every statement made and every document produced by and on behalf of Putin in the last two years has been shown, proven and demonstrated to be false, why should we believe him now?

Funnily enough, the publicly available version of the document (circulated back in the autumn) laid out the terms of an agreement which required Putin to pull back his forces. He decided instead to pursue his colonial expansion and tore up the agreement. Like he's done with every other agreement he's signed in the last twenty years regarding the status of Ukraine.

Where is the publically available document?