Buffalo shooting NY

[Hairy-Joe]

Every time something like this happens the first word out of most mouths is ‘gun control’, which I think hinders the ability to make sense.

How can you remove individuals’ guns while allowing private security at gated communities. Many people have died to these mass shootings and that is a terrible tragedy but I think theres also arguably many lives that have been saved by them. During the BLM riots many people avoided being robbed or killed because they had a gun, a time when police forces around the country just stood down, not the private security though.

Swiss gun ownership is among the highest in the world yet there hasn’t been a mass shooting in 21 years. There is something more to these shootings, signs of a deranged society bordering on a civil war. How to make sense of them, I don’t know. I’ve been trying to pay attention to the reasons given by these shooters reading their manifestos etc.. but it’s mostly crazy gibberish that contradicts itself. If they weren’t insane they were just young people who were easily influenced and trapped in the worst echo chambers who probably could have been reasoned out of their positions.

That summed it up better than I could. Banning guns won't work as the gun culture is so engrained in some parts of society. I think it's cultural and they have to seriously examine their relationship with guns. Their "shoot first" attitude to everything and extremism for everything is a problem

[CelticRambler]

Every time something like this happens the first word out of most mouths is ‘gun control’, which I think hinders the ability to make sense.
...
Swiss gun ownership is among the highest in the world yet there hasn’t been a mass shooting in 21 years.

Perhaps because the Swiss have ... gun control?

How can you remove individuals’ guns while allowing private security at gated communities. Many people have died to these mass shootings and that is a terrible tragedy but I think theres also arguably many lives that have been saved by them. During the BLM riots many people avoided being robbed or killed because they had a gun, a time when police forces around the country just stood down, not the private security though.

That's quite a claim to make. Can you back it up with specifics, like exactly how many people avoided being killed by having had a gun? And if these "many people" were using their own guns to protect themselves, what was the role of the private security paramilitaries?

[knownunknown]

Perhaps because the Swiss have ... gun control?



That's quite a claim to make. Can you back it up with specifics, like exactly how many people avoided being killed by having had a gun? And if these "many people" were using their own guns to protect themselves, what was the role of the private security paramilitaries?

What gun control do the Swiss have that the us don’t? They have a higher percentage of gun ownership.

There was a kid who was chased by a paedophile, his name was Kyle Rittenhouse, without a gun he was dead that night. Police had stood down and there was mayhem on the streets. Three grown men with weapons were chasing him screaming they were going to kill him.

That’s probably the most high profile case, but did you not hear or read about the police around the country standing down during BLM? It caused mayhem, rioting, pillaging and deaths. Not every saved life is recorded, not in the same way people are recorded when they die. To expect the same is fanciful.

Did you ever hear of the roof Koreans? They had to protect themselves from attacks during ‘92 LA riots when the police stood down.
Or maybe you heard about Patricia and Mark McCloskey the couple who were prosecuted for merely flashing their guns, again at a time when the police had stood down and there was a large angry mob with weapons nearby.

Private security doesn’t stand down but not everyone can afford them. Government security doesn’t, security at government offices doesn’t stand down, the secret service never stands down. We as people give our police forces a monopoly on violence, it’s sensible, a bit like not shitting into our own food.

When the police choose not to do their job or when they are forced not to then violence can be committed by anyone at any time and in those situations the option of a gun is probably a smart move.

[knownunknown]

Correction Switzerland have less guns that the us but have more liberal gun laws.

[CelticRambler]

What gun control do the Swiss have that the us don’t? They have a higher percentage of gun ownership.

I refer you to Trevor Noah/Michael Kosta's most informative report on the situation in Switzerland.


Everything else that you say, all those examples, are just variations on the theme of "the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun". A proclamation that has been disproved day after murderous day in the USA, and all on the back of a difference of interpretation of a single sentence written into their Constitution a couple of hundred years ago.

[isha]

Put it this way though, if I was in a country with so many guns, and people apparently willing to use them so readily, I, a good guy/gal, would prefer by a lot to have my own gun.

[knownunknown]

The substance of the piece seems to agree on the high Swiss number for guns while making the case for why there is a difference in the us for mass shootings, exactly what I was getting at; why there was a difference. Since there is a difference in attitudes and culture guns alone can’t be and aren’t the reason.

The expert cited from Switzerland as the gun expert could just have been any NRA member from the US that was promoting gun safety. Unlike popular belief and incessant attacks on them as a gun touting organisation promoting gun culture the majority of their funding goes into safety training, certification stuff like that. The promotion of organisations like that could only lead to better safety and handling of them. They are often the first ones targeted after a mass shooting as the bad, evil guys, now this presenter is showing Switzerland’s version of this as the good guys, it’s a highly hypocritical position to hold.

He proclaims the licensing of change of ownership as some revelatory scheme that’s never been thought of before in the US but what he doesn’t mention is that Switzerland don’t have any ownership licences at all, while the us does. This is just a different system doing the same job, creating a database of gun owners.

His attitude is repulsive so I switched off half way through, ignorance is the mother of arrogance.

Following your argument how else do you stop a bad guy with a gun? Even in Ireland we have armed response units. I would prefer that authorities use their monopoly of force whenever a situation arises and not leave it to individuals to protect their families and businesses. Maybe that’s the difference, Switzerland does these things,

[CelticRambler]

Following your argument how else do you stop a bad guy with a gun?

Well, that's the thing: if the "bad guy" already has a gun, you've seriously limited your options; and in the USA, there is an assumption that there are no bad guys, unless and until they demonstrate that in fact they weren't really good guys after all.

But yeah, you're right: it's all down to culture. Over there, it's considered more "normal" to be able to buy offensive weapons over the counter at age 18 than to say the offensive word "arse" on national TV. So much of USAmerican culture is still stuck in the 1700s and 1800s, a curious mix of prudishness and brutality that we Europeans (for the most part) put behind us after the events in or around 1798 across the whole continent.

[isha]

Guns are very tightly controlled in Japan. But still an assailant managed to basically make one to shoot (and possibly kill, though I have not seen confirmation) former Prime Minister Shinzo Abe.

20220708_062704.jpg (251.03 KiB) Viewed 1714 times

[knownunknown]

Guns are very tightly controlled in Japan. But still an assailant managed to basically make one to shoot (and possibly kill, though I have not seen confirmation) former Prime Minister Shinzo Abe.

20220708_062704.jpg

With 3d printing it’s just getting easier and easier. https://news.sky.com/story/3d-printed-g ... t-12630777