Israel and Palestine

[knownunknown]

[ceannairceach]

There can never be peace with those people, ever.

And their useless idiot supporters will deny that with their last breath.

[knownunknown]

There can never be peace with those people, ever.

And their useless idiot supporters will deny that with their last breath.

Well that last few Hamas mouthpieces in here all said the only solution was the complete destruction of Israel and all of the Jews there. At least they were honest in what Hamas wanted. This of course is the common consensus in Gaza and the West Bank. I wonder what this one will say.

[knownunknown]

To paraphrase Hamas,

“We will not disarm, we will not give back the hostages. We are a legitimate and legal armed resistance we want the total destruction of Israel. We are willing to sacrifice to achieve it. “

Hamas are going no where and they want to keep fighting contrary to their leader Abbas’s wishes.

[ceannairceach]

Well that last few Hamas mouthpieces in here all said the only solution was the complete destruction of Israel and all of the Jews there. At least they were honest in what Hamas wanted. This of course is the common consensus in Gaza and the West Bank. I wonder what this one will say.

My gut feeling says very similar …

[AnFearRéabhlóideach]

You understand that when the Palestinian people had the choice to vote they voted for Hamas, not fatah. Do you know what the difference between these two parties was? Fatah was secular, they believed in elections and the right of Israel to exist. That was the sticking point for Hamas, they refused to ever accept Israel’s right to exist, that’s why they suffered from international blockades. “Death to jews” is what got them elected.

You can call this loaded questions, taken out of context, highly edited, blah blah blah but every interview of these people say the same thing, they want Israel to disappear and take every part of the land, from the river to the sea. You willfully ignoring this does not make it untrue.

Many on the far right see this recent recognition of Palestine as legitimizing Israel, just like many Palestinians in the interviews. Do you believe in Israel’s right to exist? Because the Palestinians of Gaza by and large don’t. The far right and the far left hold exactly the same position on this matter, Israel shouldn’t exist and 8million Jews living there should be turned into fish food. What do you think?

Yeah the Gazans chose Hamas, the West Bank chose Fatah in an election over twenty years ago. Not very relevant to today. Didn't I already tell you that's exactly what Netyenyahoo and the Zionist war criminals dreamed of? They purposefully backed Hamas since the 90's to prevent the more secular Fatah attaining power and a strong mandate so they could continue with these Zionist wet dreams they have of a 'Greater Israel'.

Since then we've had increasing apartheid with thousands of Palestinians killed, tens of thousands imprisoned, tortured, beaten, having their homes destroyed and annexed, and basic human rights denied to the Palestinian people, particularly in Gaza where food, electricity and water were cut off repeatedly at will whenever the Israeli government felt like it. That was the state of affairs before October 7th, since then it's moved onto a new shocking phase of inhumanity from the Zionist regime of genocide, mass murder, man-made famine against Gaza and a ratcheting up in attempt to annex more and more of the West Bank. What hope does any Palestinian have in the face of such blatant racism and organised state terror such as that? The Palestinians are pushed further to the extremes because the Zionists keep pushing to the extremes, it's tit for tat.

Those vox pop interviews are a waste of time. Those type of 'interviews' are easy to manipulate when you put an editor to work at them, and as I said you can cherry pick who you want. Your argument is the old fallacy of "all of them are like that". Bassed on what? The whims of an editor who could be picking the 10 most reasonable or the 10 most extreme candidates who could be a blatant Hasbara merchant or the most fair journalist in Israel? You, I, nor anyone else can make such judgments based on so little data.

Israel exists and that's life. Do I agree with it's right to exist? Yes insofar as it's too late to do anything else about it. It's a historical reality that Israel was born of settler colonialism and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, but it's too late to turn back the clock now. Israel has to exist, because as you say 8 or 9 million human beings don't deserve to be persecuted for the sins of their grandfathers. Unlike you, I don't invest in that fallacy of all Israeli people are bad because one a bunch of Zionist psychopaths have led them down the garden path.

Do you accept Palestine's right to exist? Do you think they should be allowed to be killed, bombed and ethnically cleansed from Gaza without mercy for 2 more years? I respond to your questions, you never do the same. I don't expect that to change.

[AnFearRéabhlóideach]

Charlie Kirk didn’t do “gotcha” type interviews. You are uninformed and incorrect. Maybe if you listened to a Jew now and again you might have a more balanced depiction of reality. They’re not all evil and to be ignored. He’s also half Canadian.

He made a career out of it. He stirred the pot for an agenda and definitely used fallacies, ad hominems, every dirty trick in the book to discredit people he claimed to debate when really he would often selectively cherry picking the highlights he portrayed to his audience to make it look like he 'owned' or 'pawned' the opponent, and then leave out many debates or opponents where he got owned or pawned. He promoted extreme views that have led America down a sorry path, but that's for another thread.

I'll say one thing though for Charlie. He could on occasion be right. His criticism of the response to October 7th by the IDF was bang on the money. How is it possible that it took one the most sophisticated and technologically advanced militaries on the planet, 6 hours to respond to Hamas's attack? Whether that was by accident or design is irrelevant. The fact remains Netyenyahoo and the boys presided over one of the greatest military feckups in the history of Israel. As Charlie says, that needs investigating whatever the reasons or failings behind it were.



He also apparently didn't take kindly to Uncle Bibi, AIPAC and the Zionist lobby poisoning American politics. So even with someone whom I profoundly disagree with on many things, I can still find some common ground with him.

[AnFearRéabhlóideach]

Exactly - that is why when idiots like Starmer etc are recognizing this shithole as a “state” you are recognizing terrorist supporters.

A free choice between peace and war ? A two state solution or an unwinnable war ? They chose Hamas.

Fck them all.

Wow a very balanced and informed view. Almost like you want the Zionists to declare war on the entire world. Generally, the multi-front war is a bad idea. Just ask Hitler and the Nazis. But, then again maybe that's what these Zionist wingnuts want. To launch the 'not so secret' Israeli nukes all the way into permanent notoriety.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

[Clanrickard]

You are referring to wingnuts and you post that link?

[ceannairceach]

You are referring to wingnuts and you post that link?

I’ve no idea what link you mean but seeing the hidden posts make me think you’re bang on the money that it’s dumb.

[AnFearRéabhlóideach]

There can never be peace with those people, ever.

And their useless idiot supporters will deny that with their last breath.

Who you talking about Ceannairceach? The Zionists or Hamas? I'm just clarifying. You never make it clear with all this insinuating you do be at.

[AnFearRéabhlóideach]

You are referring to wingnuts and you post that link?

Clan you're alive. Jaysus it's good to see more friendly faces round here after politics.ie imploded last month. Our old buddy, old pal, Cattlepest is lurking around here somewhere too. Good to see you're in good form.

[Jequ0n]

Well that last few Hamas mouthpieces in here all said the only solution was the complete destruction of Israel and all of the Jews there. At least they were honest in what Hamas wanted. This of course is the common consensus in Gaza and the West Bank. I wonder what this one will say.

To be fair, I would have been surprised to see any videoed testimony criticising Hamas in those videos. They can’t voice obvious criticism because they will be killed.
I never see Northern Koreans being criticised for not opposing their regime, or any other people who are living in a situation where they cannot voice their opinion for fear of death. None of these random street interviews hold much merit imo.

[schmittel]

Exactly - that is why when idiots like Starmer etc are recognizing this shithole as a “state” you are recognizing terrorist supporters.

A free choice between peace and war ? A two state solution or an unwinnable war ? They chose Hamas.

Fck them all.

Idiots like Starmer recgnizing the state of Palestine is more about sending a message to Israel than Palestine.

I think the Palestinians seemed keen on two state solution rather than an unwinnable back when Arafat was in dialogue with Rabin. The death of Rabin, and the rise of Hamas and Netanyahu put paid to that sadly.

A total war with Israel is undoubtedly unwinnable from a Palestinian point of view, but it is also unwinnable from an Israeli point of view as it will be at best a Pyrric victory with Israel being an international pariah fuelling global anti-semitism.

The only realistic solution is regime change in both Israel and Palestine, and new governments negotiating a two state solution, with some sort of mutually agreeable peace keeping force.

That's currently totally unrealistic with a Netanyahu government negotiating with Hamas. The sooner ordinary Israeli and Palestinian citizens realise this the better.

Of course, Israel being the civilised western democracy and Palestine being the rag bag of dictator led terrorists, it is not unreasonable to expect the Israeli people to move first on this.

Won't be holding my breath though.

[ceannairceach]

Idiots like Starmer recgnizing the state of Palestine is more about sending a message to Israel than Palestine.

I think the Palestinians seemed keen on two state solution rather than an unwinnable back when Arafat was in dialogue with Rabin. The death of Rabin, and the rise of Hamas and Netanyahu put paid to that sadly.

A total war with Israel is undoubtedly unwinnable from a Palestinian point of view, but it is also unwinnable from an Israeli point of view as it will be at best a Pyrric victory with Israel being an international pariah fuelling global anti-semitism.

The only realistic solution is regime change in both Israel and Palestine, and new governments negotiating a two state solution, with some sort of mutually agreeable peace keeping force.

That's currently totally unrealistic with a Netanyahu government negotiating with Hamas. The sooner ordinary Israeli and Palestinian citizens realise this the better.

Of course, Israel being the civilised western democracy and Palestine being the rag bag of dictator led terrorists, it is not unreasonable to expect the Israeli people to move first on this.

Won't be holding my breath though.

Hamas rose because the “ordinary decent Gazans” voted in and continue to vote in, a reprehensible murdering bunch of … the actual word would not be allowed.

[schmittel]

Hamas rose because the “ordinary decent Gazans” voted in and continue to vote in, a reprehensible murdering bunch of … the actual word would not be allowed.

Well worth reading up on Netanyahu's influence in such matters, not only his role in the demise of Rabin and Arafat's negotiations for peace, but also his role in encouraging the role of Hamas. Israel now reaps what Netanyahu has sown.

For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.

The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years ... our-faces/

[knownunknown]

He made a career out of it. He stirred the pot for an agenda and definitely used fallacies, ad hominems, every dirty trick in the book to discredit people he claimed to debate when really he would often selectively cherry picking the highlights he portrayed to his audience to make it look like he 'owned' or 'pawned' the opponent, and then leave out many debates or opponents where he got owned or pawned. He promoted extreme views that have led America down a sorry path, but that's for another thread.

We have another thread for this but this is completely incorrect and made up and has no basis in reality. The other thread proves it.

Whichever influencer is telling you these lies you need to stop following them. They are lying to you and abusing you.

https://www.gubu.ie/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2511

[knownunknown]

Do you accept Palestine's right to exist? Do you think they should be allowed to be killed, bombed and ethnically cleansed from Gaza without mercy for 2 more years? I respond to your questions, you never do the same. I don't expect that to change.

Palestine as a country or Palestine as a people? They aren’t being ethnically cleansed from Gaza. They can give up the hostages and surrender at any time and it will be all over. This is called a war and always has been since the very beginning of warfare.

Exist? Palestine has never been a country, despite the international community coming together numerous times to make it so. Not because the Jews told them no, but because they never accepted the existence of Israel. They want it all. Do you accept this? Do you realize they’ve always said no to a Palestinian state because Israel exists at all?

If these Palestinians get their wish and Israel were to cease to exist, would the Arab states that expelled jews allow them to return? Would they feck.



They want the return of every Palestinian today to the 1948 borders, the complete and utter removal of Israel. There are millions of Palestinians today that descend from these people, many of whom left their houses at the behest of the Arab armies that were marching on the newly founded state of Israel after declaring war on them. These people were promised right to return to their homes once the Israelis had been turned to fish food. The problem is the Israelis won.

Palestine right now seems to be two very separate and distinct areas, Gaza and the West Bank. In Gaza they have had a defacto state since 2005. They have had full and total control over their own lives and they spent the best part of 20 years preparing for Oct.7, building their network of terror tunnels and fortifying military positions under hospitals.

In Gaza they refused to accept Israel’s right to exist and they poured every penny of international aid into facilities for terror. If they are unable to accept Israel’s right to exist and they spend every penny trying to destroy it I will shed few tears if the whole place becomes uninhabitable. Just like the nazis. Now is their chance to surrender and actually have a state, but as usual they are more intent on seeing Israel destroyed. Hamas promised to commit Oct.7th again and again and again until Israel ceased to exist. They still hold the hostages that are being raped and starved. They have the surrender conditions but they choose to fight on. I hope they burn in hell because innocent civilians are suffering because of their choices.

The West Bank on the other hand, which has a long history of terrorism also, is a different story. The PLO accept secularism, accept women’s rights, accept notions like universal suffrage. They have been living under partial Israel rule, but now they are their own country, recognized internationally.

Egypt didn’t want Gaza. It had it and gave it up. Jordan didn’t want the West Bank, it had it and gave it up. Egypt closed its borders and wants nothing to do with these people, you have to ask yourself why. They had the Muslim brotherhood in their country and it got rooted out like a rotten tooth, painful and it left big scars. They didn’t want to go through it again. In Jordan they had black September and didn’t want to go through it again.

If Gaza had just got on with life and stopped worrying about Israel every Palestinian today would be living their life freely and without any restrictions. Some 120,000 gazans used to work freely in Israel in 2007, in 2023 this was about 20,000. Israel sends water, electricity, food into Gaza to help it and Gaza sends rockets in return to Israel.

Palestine and its people have every right to exist so long as their sole doctrine isn’t the destruction of Israel, which it is.

[knownunknown]

Wow a very balanced and informed view. Almost like you want the Zionists to declare war on the entire world. Generally, the multi-front war is a bad idea. Just ask Hitler and the Nazis. But, then again maybe that's what these Zionist wingnuts want. To launch the 'not so secret' Israeli nukes all the way into permanent notoriety.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

The Samson option … every other country calls it mutually assured destruction or MAD. It’s what makes nuclear weapons effective, for every single country that has them. Serious facepalm….

Complaining about a balanced point of view while attacking Israel for the same doctrine every other nuclear power employs…. This just made my day. I laughed so hard.

This Samson option is the same reason Ukraine fears striking Russia but they don’t call it that. If you know anything about game theory; it’s the Nash equilibrium strategy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_ ... estruction

[knownunknown]

Idiots like Starmer recgnizing the state of Palestine is more about sending a message to Israel than Palestine.

Hamas are the most upset about this new recognition of Palestine. They see it as legitimising Israel the one thing they’ve been fighting against since their inception. They don’t see the PLO as the legitimate government. Idiots like Starmer appeased his base by saying “look I’m recognising Palestine” to get the seals to clap along, while actually it puts more pressure on Hamas as illegitimate.

It was a genius move.

[knownunknown]

For months all we heard about was famine and pictures of emaciated children and now all those claims have again dried up, why was that? The claims proved to be wrong, the children pictured had pre existing medical conditions.

Never in a conflict like this has the aggressive side had to do all the feeding and sheltering of the civilians of the army it is fighting, yet that is what Israel is doing.

[schmittel]

For months all we heard about was famine and pictures of emaciated children and now all those claims have again dried up, why was that? The claims proved to be wrong, the children pictured had pre existing medical conditions.

Never in a conflict like this has the aggressive side had to do all the feeding and sheltering of the civilians of the army it is fighting, yet that is what Israel is doing.

Are there any independent reports that debunk the stories of famine in Gaza? Certainly nobody in their right ming would class that guy as unbiased.

Salo Aizenberg is an independent scholar and author who writes about antisemitism and the Israel-Palestine conflict. He currently serves on the board of HonestReporting. His book, Hatemail: Anti-Semitism on Picture Postcards, was a finalist for a National Jewish Books Award in 2013. Salo's articles have appeared in Fathom Journal, Tablet Magazine, etc. and he also authored rebuttals for NGO Monitor countering the HRW & Amnesty reports that claim Israel practices apartheid.

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/author/ ... r=about-me

[knownunknown]

Are there any independent reports that debunk the stories of famine in Gaza? Certainly nobody in their right ming would class that guy as unbiased.



https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/author/ ... r=about-me

You’re asking for proof of a negative. If there was a famine you’d hear about it, you’d see pictures of huddled masses of starving people and dead bodies would be unable to hide. We never saw this.

The GHF and Israel have repeatedly said they need to increase the amount of aid being delivered but they are doing the best they can.

UNRWA and the UN have decided to reject working with GHF completely since they took over. They don’t care about aid for Palestinians, they care about power only. If there was a famine the fact that the UN rejected working with GHF should be a serious point to note.

Hamas has been trying to disrupt the GHF sites since they started by shooting civilians who were going there. Many of the western media reported this as GHF firing on civilians which was an absolute disgusting and untrue narrative, perpetuated by the now debunked col. Aguilar.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/6/1 ... -a-failure

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd787er1qz4o

https://www.fdd.org/analysis/op_eds/202 ... tribution/

[schmittel]

You’re asking for proof of a negative. If there was a famine you’d hear about it, you’d see pictures of huddled masses of starving people and dead bodies would be unable to hide. We never saw this.

So are the World Health Organisation and Unicef etc wrong?

More than half a million people in Gaza are trapped in famine, marked by widespread starvation, destitution and preventable deaths, according to a new Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC) analysis released today. Famine conditions are projected to spread from Gaza Governorate to Deir Al Balah and Khan Younis Governorates in the coming weeks.

The Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO), UNICEF, the United Nations World Food Programme (WFP) and the World Health Organization (WHO) have collectively and consistently highlighted the extreme urgency for an immediate and full-scale humanitarian response given the escalating hunger-related deaths, rapidly worsening levels of acute malnutrition and plummeting levels of food consumption, with hundreds of thousands of people going days without anything to eat.

Who can we trust here? Reports from Israelis, reports from Palestinians, or reports from the WHO, UNICEF and the UN?

[knownunknown]

So are the World Health Organisation and Unicef etc wrong?



Who can we trust here? Reports from Israelis, reports from Palestinians, or reports from the WHO, UNICEF and the UN?

The WHO don’t have much credibility left these days after the US withdrew and what happened during Covid. They are run by the Chinese who will do and say anything to hurt the west. There aren’t many political institutions left that can be trusted, use your head, if there was a famine you’d see it. Especially with all the support the Hamas position has in the media. Where are the pictures of the starving huddled masses?

Type in famine Ethiopia and famine Gaza into your search engine and look at the difference.

Alternately you can follow the GHF who give regular updates on the amount of aid being delivered into Gaza, about 3,000 calories per person per day.
They are now switching to a women only type of aid delivery to make it easier for families to get aid so that Hamas can’t steal it or disrupt people standing in lines, very clever.