Israel and Palestine

[roc_enthusiast]

Remember the propaganda that caused millions of Germans and Europeans in the world of that time, over 80 years ago, to abandon everything they knew about good and evil and believe that Jews were monsters, guilty of the endless accusations then thrown at them.

Everyone credits this to Hitler. But Hitler was a rhetorician. It was Goebbels, the propaganda minister, who was the one who shaped the world of that era through words.

Because words create reality. Language shapes consciousness, and consciousness shapes reality. Dehumanisation begins with words. Words are the fuel for action. Goebbels, knew this best.

So Goebbels, the propaganda minister, used words like a magic wand. Just as four decades of Soviet & PLO propaganda aimed at, and another ensuing four decades of Islamist propaganda from the governments of Iran and organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah etc.

And of course before that, you alsi had the Muslim Brotherhood and the ideas of al-Banna and Haj Amin el-Husseini, that were the trajectory by which the words of Goebbels were reborn and recast to renew the self-same crusade.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/hist ... amist-hate

All, just like Goebbels, claiming that Jews were the source of all evil and troubles. If there was hunger, if there was war, if there was scarcity, or if you were sad, or if there were plagues—there was someone to blame for it.

So contemporary antisemitism caught onto these methods. And we see today, Hamas supporters, and Israel-haters in general use antisemitic rhetoric to garner support.



The narrative of Jews stealing homes from Arabs aligns with the antisemitic trope of the thieving Jew.

The narrative of fabricated numbers of children killed in operations aligns with the term “child murderers”.

In general, the entire conflict fits perfectly with the narrative that the suffering and evil in the world originate with Israel, with the Jews.

See how these mindless contemporary antisemites know no shame. Remember for example, three months ago, when images of extremely emaciated children were sent to editors of respected newspapers worldwide, to give the war the dimension of the Holocaust, to claim there was starvation, like in the ghettos - concealing the fact that the four or five children they managed to find for the campaign were suffering from rare terminal illnesses.

That lie largely succeeded. Then a month ago, we saw "protests" around the world where people held up pictures of none other than Anne Frank, wearing a keffiyeh. The Holocaust narrative pushed into the European and American supporters of Hamas.

And then with the war’s end, endless Palestinians began filming themselves under the caption “I survived the Holocaust in Gaza.”

Even more incongruous, we saw the pictures and videos accompanying these claims depicted everyone looking well fed and healthy, in designer gear, flaunting designer phones!

It's utterly abominable.

It is as if Hamas realise that they can stoke antisemitism even higher by making people repeat their lies, while at the same time being faced with the opposing evidence, the reality, thereby transcending all rationality, and sense of the real world.

Shameful, shameful. And half the damned country is engaged in it.

[ceannairceach]

Remember the propaganda that caused millions of Germans and Europeans in the world of that time, over 80 years ago, to abandon everything they knew about good and evil and believe that Jews were monsters, guilty of the endless accusations then thrown at them.

Everyone credits this to Hitler. But Hitler was a rhetorician. It was Goebbels, the propaganda minister, who was the one who shaped the world of that era through words.

Because words create reality. Language shapes consciousness, and consciousness shapes reality. Dehumanisation begins with words. Words are the fuel for action. Goebbels, knew this best.

So Goebbels, the propaganda minister, used words like a magic wand. Just as four decades of Soviet & PLO propaganda aimed at, and another ensuing four decades of Islamist propaganda from the governments of Iran and organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah etc.

And of course before that, you alsi had the Muslim Brotherhood and the ideas of al-Banna and Haj Amin el-Husseini, that were the trajectory by which the words of Goebbels were reborn and recast to renew the self-same crusade.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/hist ... amist-hate

All, just like Goebbels, claiming that Jews were the source of all evil and troubles. If there was hunger, if there was war, if there was scarcity, or if you were sad, or if there were plagues—there was someone to blame for it.

So contemporary antisemitism caught onto these methods. And we see today, Hamas supporters, and Israel-haters in general use antisemitic rhetoric to garner support.



The narrative of Jews stealing homes from Arabs aligns with the antisemitic trope of the thieving Jew.

The narrative of fabricated numbers of children killed in operations aligns with the term “child murderers”.

In general, the entire conflict fits perfectly with the narrative that the suffering and evil in the world originate with Israel, with the Jews.

See how these mindless contemporary antisemites know no shame. Remember for example, three months ago, when images of extremely emaciated children were sent to editors of respected newspapers worldwide, to give the war the dimension of the Holocaust, to claim there was starvation, like in the ghettos - concealing the fact that the four or five children they managed to find for the campaign were suffering from rare terminal illnesses.

That lie largely succeeded. Then a month ago, we saw "protests" around the world where people held up pictures of none other than Anne Frank, wearing a keffiyeh. The Holocaust narrative pushed into the European and American supporters of Hamas.

And then with the war’s end, endless Palestinians began filming themselves under the caption “I survived the Holocaust in Gaza.”

Even more incongruous, we saw the pictures and videos accompanying these claims depicted everyone looking well fed and healthy, in designer gear, flaunting designer phones!

It's utterly abominable.

It is as if Hamas realise that they can stoke antisemitism even higher by making people repeat their lies, while at the same time being faced with the opposing evidence, the reality, thereby transcending all rationality, and sense of the real world.

Shameful, shameful. And half the damned country is engaged in it.

I was in Dublin the other day and one of the local college staged a Walk Out for Palestine .. a group actively protesting AGAINST the peace deal.

Not too sure that we can be saved as a country if the brightest minds fall for this but then propaganda as a tool is effective. Evil but effective.

[AnFearRéabhlóideach]

Starry: In Truth, I felt that politics.ie was an experiment for the mods to behave like prison guards (with the exception of the mods' snitches).

Have you heard of the Stanford Prison Experiment (SPE) ?

It might not be the case that there was something wrong with the SPE, but the fact that people don’t want to accept the findings. I think this can dovetail with moderation on social media, not current Gubu.ie moderation, as you stated.

I disagree with a statement in below 'simply psychology' link: “Even good, normal people can do evil things when situational forces push them in that direction.”

ANF, It’s not so black and white that good people do evil things. I think people do evil, because they have evil within them. They also have good. In different measures.

There was also an excuse as to why they could not freely withdraw from SPE, citing the experiment’s immersive nature made it psychologically difficult for them. What nonsense. It was role play.
https://www.simplypsychology.org/zimbardo.html

“Results: Men assigned as guards began behaving sadistically, inflicting humiliation and suffering on the prisoners. Prisoners became blindly obedient and allowed themselves to be dehumanized [E.G., Politicis.ie sycophants).

“The experiment had to be terminated after only 6 days due to the extreme, pathological behavior emerging in both groups.


https://www.britannica.com/event/Stanfo ... Experiment

“The Stanford Prison Experiment was a social psychology study in which college students became prisoners or guards in a simulated prison environment. The experiment, funded by the U.S. Office of Naval Research, took place at Stanford University in August 1971. It was intended to measure the effect of role-playing, labeling, and social expectations on behavior over a period of two weeks. However, mistreatment of prisoners escalated so alarmingly that the principal investigator, the American psychologist Philip G. Zimbardo, terminated the experiment after only six days.

“On only the second day the prisoners staged a rebellion that was put down by the guards. Guards then worked out a system of rewards and punishments to manage the prisoners. Within the first four days, three prisoners had become so traumatized that they were released. Over the course of the experiment, some of the guards became cruel and tyrannical, and a number of the prisoners became depressed and disoriented. However, only after an outside observer came upon the scene and registered shock did Zimbardo end the experiment, less than a week after it had started.

“Despite its early termination, the experiment seemed to show that the regular attitudes and behavior of normal persons could be dramatically altered by the social situations in which they find themselves. Zimbardo himself claimed that the experiment’s “social forces and environmental contingencies” had led the guards to behave badly. ....

^ Read on ^

It might not be the case that there was something wrong with the experiment, but the fact that people don’t want to accept the findings.

I reiterate: I think this can dovetail with moderation on social media, not current Gubu.ie moderation as you stated. I haven’t had any problems with this site.

We will be seeing a lot of revisionist history on the Palestinian Holocaust. Who owns the media?

Edit: sp Gubu

I'm aware of the experiment and it's possible implications. Gaza is a case in point. People become extremely intoxicated with the paths or roles given to them leading them on paths that they probably never could have imagined. Did the IDF soldiers or Hamas fighters start out in life as babies in their respective families with any knowledge that they were Jewish and the other Muslim? Of course not. Thus the hatred between the Israeli's and the Muslims is neither eternal nor never ending. People are moulded into their roles by their parents, friends and society. Criminal as the Zionist loons running Israel are, do I think that Smotrich or Netyenyahoo came into this world shouting "Death to the Arabs."? No that would be an extremely farcical notion.

I'm more a fan of the tabula rasa concept of morality. Both sides have been carefully crafted down their respective ideological and moral paths through education, propaganda and social interaction since the day they were born. Everyone has choices, and everyone has the ability to think, but unfortunately that 'us' vs 'them' mentality seen so clearly in the Stanford experiment is a very hard ideological boundary to break down. October 7th and the Gazan genocide have hardened those camps.

I accept that there is the power element as in the Stanford prison guard experiment, Michel Foucault's theories of power relations and all that has a ring of truth to it. For most ordinary people, I'm more partial to the Milgram experiment, where people were coaxed into delivering electric shocks to an actor who pretended to be dying while under the supervision of what the individual though was a scientist. The scientist pushed them on with benign slogans and propaganda until a large majority would kill the actor if it had been a real electric shock being delivered. The experiment proves that when people in positions of authority push relatively banal or normal individuals, they can commit horrendous acts thinkings it's for the benefit of their society or for a warped notion of the common good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Israeli society mirrors such things. You have a notorious propaganda program that has been indoctrinating the entire population for decades and it's a joke how obvious it is, yet still Israeli people fall deep into its intoxicating trap. Because, it's better to be 'us' alive and all 'them' dead if needs be, that's what has been sold to then by the Zionist charlatans. I cannot otherwise explain how IDF soldiers deliberately have targeted children repeatedly and so willingly killed them and thousands of other innocent Palestinians in cold blood in Gaza.

The indoctrination being used on the Israeli population, it's not that different from our social media bubbles, where you have dangerous individuals pushing people to ever more extremist positions under the auspices of 'free speech', while phrasing these things in benign, fluffy terms to make utterly racist and depraved points of view seem normal or part of a consensus. Bots, paid propagandists and numerous other forms of gentle coercion slowly push us into divided camps. We're on a path to another world war I feel, if we don't stand up and start thinking for ourselves.

Why such an agenda is being pushed by large American Silicon Valley organisations is hard to know. I agree to an extent with Yanis Varoufakis's recent interviews where there is a new techno-feudalist age emerging where the Silicon Valley tech bros simply do not need a large underclass of humanity as machines and AI take over. This, this pushes large segments of the human population into a kind of meaningless position of servility like medieval knights who only used the serfs to maintain their power and prestige. Capitalist society always had that inbuilt feudal deference to the rich and powerful anyway. Anyway, enough babbling off topic, time to return to one of the worst war crimes of the 21st century so far.

[p.ie man]

Israel reportedly killed 11 family members, including about 6 children in their latest ceasefire breach. Its just unrestrained murder


https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/10/ ... uce-breach

[AnFearRéabhlóideach]

Remember the propaganda that caused millions of Germans and Europeans in the world of that time, over 80 years ago, to abandon everything they knew about good and evil and believe that Jews were monsters, guilty of the endless accusations then thrown at them.

Everyone credits this to Hitler. But Hitler was a rhetorician. It was Goebbels, the propaganda minister, who was the one who shaped the world of that era through words.

Because words create reality. Language shapes consciousness, and consciousness shapes reality. Dehumanisation begins with words. Words are the fuel for action. Goebbels, knew this best.

So Goebbels, the propaganda minister, used words like a magic wand. Just as four decades of Soviet & PLO propaganda aimed at, and another ensuing four decades of Islamist propaganda from the governments of Iran and organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah etc.

And of course before that, you alsi had the Muslim Brotherhood and the ideas of al-Banna and Haj Amin el-Husseini, that were the trajectory by which the words of Goebbels were reborn and recast to renew the self-same crusade.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/hist ... amist-hate

All, just like Goebbels, claiming that Jews were the source of all evil and troubles. If there was hunger, if there was war, if there was scarcity, or if you were sad, or if there were plagues—there was someone to blame for it.

So contemporary antisemitism caught onto these methods. And we see today, Hamas supporters, and Israel-haters in general use antisemitic rhetoric to garner support.



The narrative of Jews stealing homes from Arabs aligns with the antisemitic trope of the thieving Jew.

The narrative of fabricated numbers of children killed in operations aligns with the term “child murderers”.

In general, the entire conflict fits perfectly with the narrative that the suffering and evil in the world originate with Israel, with the Jews.

See how these mindless contemporary antisemites know no shame. Remember for example, three months ago, when images of extremely emaciated children were sent to editors of respected newspapers worldwide, to give the war the dimension of the Holocaust, to claim there was starvation, like in the ghettos - concealing the fact that the four or five children they managed to find for the campaign were suffering from rare terminal illnesses.

That lie largely succeeded. Then a month ago, we saw "protests" around the world where people held up pictures of none other than Anne Frank, wearing a keffiyeh. The Holocaust narrative pushed into the European and American supporters of Hamas.

And then with the war’s end, endless Palestinians began filming themselves under the caption “I survived the Holocaust in Gaza.”

Even more incongruous, we saw the pictures and videos accompanying these claims depicted everyone looking well fed and healthy, in designer gear, flaunting designer phones!

It's utterly abominable.

It is as if Hamas realise that they can stoke antisemitism even higher by making people repeat their lies, while at the same time being faced with the opposing evidence, the reality, thereby transcending all rationality, and sense of the real world.

Shameful, shameful. And half the damned country is engaged in it.

Oh my god would you look who it is. Fr. Jack Hackett himself has returned from the dead. Welcome back dear R'OC. Skip along to 4:45 in this YouTube video. Let's welcome your return to Irish political commentating from whatever clime you do hail, if it is the man, the myth, the legend from politics.ie.



If it is really you dear R'OC, there's no better man to equate anti-semitism and anti-zionism as one and the same. Let's start with the "these are small and the other ones are far away" argument again. Judaism is a religion, so anti-semitism is hatred of a religion. Zionism is a racist political ideology that happens to be liked by some fundamentalist Jewish individuals and also some fundamentalist Christian head the balls in America.

Some Jewish individuals also are anti-zionist, meaning it would be insane to equate members of a religion as hating their own co-religionists, a logical fallacy. Therefore, anti-semitism is not the same as anti-zionism. That'll do for today's logic lesson R'OC. First of many I expect if it really is the man of politics.ie legend.

[knownunknown]

Remember the propaganda that caused millions of Germans and Europeans in the world of that time, over 80 years ago, to abandon everything they knew about good and evil and believe that Jews were monsters, guilty of the endless accusations then thrown at them.

Everyone credits this to Hitler. But Hitler was a rhetorician. It was Goebbels, the propaganda minister, who was the one who shaped the world of that era through words.

Because words create reality. Language shapes consciousness, and consciousness shapes reality. Dehumanisation begins with words. Words are the fuel for action. Goebbels, knew this best.

So Goebbels, the propaganda minister, used words like a magic wand. Just as four decades of Soviet & PLO propaganda aimed at, and another ensuing four decades of Islamist propaganda from the governments of Iran and organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah etc.

And of course before that, you alsi had the Muslim Brotherhood and the ideas of al-Banna and Haj Amin el-Husseini, that were the trajectory by which the words of Goebbels were reborn and recast to renew the self-same crusade.

/image removed/

All, just like Goebbels, claiming that Jews were the source of all evil and troubles. If there was hunger, if there was war, if there was scarcity, or if you were sad, or if there were plagues—there was someone to blame for it.

So contemporary antisemitism caught onto these methods. And we see today, Hamas supporters, and Israel-haters in general use antisemitic rhetoric to garner support.

/image removed/

The narrative of Jews stealing homes from Arabs aligns with the antisemitic trope of the thieving Jew.

The narrative of fabricated numbers of children killed in operations aligns with the term “child murderers”.

In general, the entire conflict fits perfectly with the narrative that the suffering and evil in the world originate with Israel, with the Jews.

See how these mindless contemporary antisemites know no shame. Remember for example, three months ago, when images of extremely emaciated children were sent to editors of respected newspapers worldwide, to give the war the dimension of the Holocaust, to claim there was starvation, like in the ghettos - concealing the fact that the four or five children they managed to find for the campaign were suffering from rare terminal illnesses.

That lie largely succeeded. Then a month ago, we saw "protests" around the world where people held up pictures of none other than Anne Frank, wearing a keffiyeh. The Holocaust narrative pushed into the European and American supporters of Hamas.

And then with the war’s end, endless Palestinians began filming themselves under the caption “I survived the Holocaust in Gaza.”

Even more incongruous, we saw the pictures and videos accompanying these claims depicted everyone looking well fed and healthy, in designer gear, flaunting designer phones!

It's utterly abominable.

It is as if Hamas realise that they can stoke antisemitism even higher by making people repeat their lies, while at the same time being faced with the opposing evidence, the reality, thereby transcending all rationality, and sense of the real world.

Shameful, shameful. And half the damned country is engaged in it.

Very shameful and how do we know all this? How do we know it’s blind hate of Jews and not opposition to some Jewish political entity, this Zionism everyone keeps talking about.

Greta posted up a picture during her flotilla stunt, she obviously went on google and searched for starving -prisoners -Gaza or something like this and instead of posting up a picture of a starving Palestinian accidentally posted the picture of Evyatar David, an Israeli hostage being starved in captivity.
They claim to care about starvation as a weapon of war but when it happens to Israels they don’t care and actively celebrate it. When she found out she deleted the photo and made no mention of it on instagram.

They went to the streets for two years shouting for a ceasefire, screaming genocide and holocaust. When a ceasefire happened they returned to the streets to demand Hamas keep up the fight and a return to ‘48 borders.
They only care about a ceasefire when it means a victory for Hamas.

They claim to care about the death and suffering of Palestinians but only when Israelis do it. When it is mentioned that Hamas rule with an iron fist and the first thing they did upon the announcement of the ceasefire was execute civilians publicly in the streets all we heard was silence.
When proof is shown that Hamas are using their civilians as human shields their minds are so warped all they can reply with is “but..but.. Israel”

They claim to be against “Zionists” and not Jews. Today, Zionism is support for the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. Anyone who doesn’t want to see the state of Israel destroyed is a Zionist. Make no mistake, when they talk about Zionist they are talking about all the Jews in Israel as well as all the ‘48 Arabs(Israel collaborators, traitors) who want to continue their lives in peace(over 1 million), as well as any Jews abroad who want their homeland to continue to exist. They think they are so clever, rejoicing in ignorance, “I don’t hate the Jews, it’s the Zionists!”

Their modus operandi this entire war has been for the destruction of Israel and a return to pre ‘48 borders(without Israel). There’s about 15 million Jews in the whole world, half of them in Israel, they aren’t expansionist, they aren’t growing and they aren’t trying to build a caliphate anywhere. Pakistan became a country around the same time and there is no word for Pakistanis that want the continued existence of their state.

Calls for the destruction of Israel are very anti semitic and indeed very hitler-esque, even if they call it “being opposed to Zionism”. They think everyone is as stupid as they are.

[Mullins]

Silence from the gazaholics on Saturday 7 October 2023. Silence now with Hamas killing their own people.

Sensible and honest people would be horrified with death on both sides.

[ceannairceach]

Silence from the gazaholics on Saturday 7 October 2023. Silence now with Hamas killing their own people.

Sensible and honest people would be horrified with death on both sides.

If the wingnut I have the misfortune to work in the same place is anything to go by, the poor Hamas people were driven to it all….

[Mullins]

Thankfully I have no one in my social circle that in anyway would support such dirty filthy murderous scumbags. Thank the good Lord for such mercies.

[ceannairceach]

Thankfully I have no one in my social circle that in anyway would support such dirty filthy murderous scumbags. Thank the good Lord for such mercies.

Lucky duck!!!

[StarryPlough01]

Erasing the Culture and Identity of Palestinians

Preamble:
There are similarities in the treatment of Palestinians by Zionist Israelis to the European colonisers of indigenous populations.


On Feb 18, 2025, I wrote below on a different Israel-Palestine thread:

Israelis have attempted to justify their expansionism and systematic violence and displacement of Palestinians under the pretext of looking for terrorists.

And, in much the same way as European colonialist settlers, Zionist Israelis view Palestinians as an obstacle to expansion and wealth-building. This is what has fueled their slaughter of innocent Palestinian women and children, the large scale bloody massacres (prior to the 1948 Nakba up to the present day), illegal dispossession of Palestinian land, displacement, cutting off water, food, fuel, humanitarian aid ...

Furthermore, the Zionists want to destroy the identity and cultural heritage of the Palestinian people - to erase any memory of it.

Gaza’s oldest mosque was destroyed by successive airstrikes. The last airstrike was after 7/10. The Great Omari Mosque, a 5th century Byzantine church, and 4,100 square metres in area. Palestinians still went there to pray.




“The Great Omari Mosque, the largest and oldest in Gaza City, reduced to rubble [Doaa Rouqa/Reuters]”

^ "Only the minaret appeared to be intact, with the surroundings shattered. The site has been a CHRISTIAN or MUSLIM holy site since at least the fifth century."
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/ ... e-heritage




“Palestinians pray at al Omari Mosque in Gaza City in August 2017 [File: Ibraheem Abu Mustafa/Reuters]”


The Greek Orthodox Church of Saint Porphyrius, dates back to the 5th century. It has been repeatedly bombed by IDF since 7/10. It was a gathering place for all faiths. Pope Francis spoke against the Israeli airstrike of October 2023.
[...]

STARRY: I will add ~~~

The Nakba (1948)
Please Note: 750,000 people were expelled from Palestine in what became the State of Israel (the Jewish Homeland) in 1948. Many Israelis believe there is no such thing as a Palestinian nation.

Peace... Al-Salam... Shalom...

[knownunknown]

The Nakba (1948)
Please Note: 750,000 people were expelled from Palestine in what became the State of Israel (the Jewish Homeland) in 1948. Many Israelis believe there is no such thing as a Palestinian nation.

Peace... Al-Salam... Shalom...

750,000 people were not expelled, 750,000 became refugees. A fair portion were expelled, maybe 50%, about 40% fled due to fear and 10% were ordered to leave by the Arab armies that were marching on Israel at the time to destroy it, 5 of them. The Arab generals promised they could return when the Israelis became fish food.

150,000 Arabs remained in Israel, were not expelled and did not flee. They now represent some 2million people living there with the greatest freedoms in the Middle East, not an apartheid as some claim.

850,000 Jews were expelled or fled their homes from Arab countries post 1948 with the majority resettling in Israel. Do you know how many Jewish people remain in these countries?

1948 was a long time ago and there have been several attempts to reimburse many of the refugees since but they don’t want to give their “right of return” in exchange for alternate compensation, something the UN has said was acceptable.

[ceannairceach]

750,000 people were not expelled, 750,000 became refugees. A fair portion were expelled, maybe 50%, about 40% fled due to fear and 10% were ordered to leave by the Arab armies that were marching on Israel at the time to destroy it, 5 of them. The Arab generals promised they could return when the Israelis became fish food.

150,000 Arabs remained in Israel, were not expelled and did not flee. They now represent some 2million people living there with the greatest freedoms in the Middle East, not an apartheid as some claim.

850,000 Jews were expelled or fled their homes from Arab countries post 1948 with the majority resettling in Israel. Do you know how many Jewish people remain in these countries?

1948 was a long time ago and there have been several attempts to reimburse many of the refugees since but they don’t want to give their “right of return” in exchange for alternate compensation, something the UN has said was acceptable.

Now stop that!

You know the great swathes of text mob and their unnecessarily sarcastic buddies HATE rationality and facts!!!

The Queers for Palestine losers especially would loathe the fact that their beloved “country” would kill them soon as look at them whereas Tel Aviv Pride is one of the best in the world.

[StarryPlough01]

750,000 people were not expelled, 750,000 became refugees. A fair portion were expelled, maybe 50%, about 40% fled due to fear and 10% were ordered to leave by the Arab armies that were marching on Israel at the time to destroy it, 5 of them. The Arab generals promised they could return when the Israelis became fish food.

150,000 Arabs remained in Israel, were not expelled and did not flee. They now represent some 2million people living there with the greatest freedoms in the Middle East, not an apartheid as some claim.

850,000 Jews were expelled or fled their homes from Arab countries post 1948 with the majority resettling in Israel. Do you know how many Jewish people remain in these countries?

1948 was a long time ago and there have been several attempts to reimburse many of the refugees since but they don’t want to give their “right of return” in exchange for alternate compensation, something the UN has said was acceptable.

KuK,

You are, of course, welcome to correct Wikipedia (see below link).

Looking at your post, you appear to be replying with a BOT answer. KuK, How did you prompt the BOT (AI) ??

For parity I decided to do the same and asked the BOT to compile a comprehensive list of historians who have written about the ethnic cleansing / displacement of Palestinians expelled or fleeing during the 1947-1949 period around the founding of the State of Israel. And to include a mixture of estimates from various perspectives — both higher and lower numbers — along with their methodologies and the sources they use. FAIR ???

The consensus is around 750,000 expulsions. The lowest number was from Efraim Karsh (an Israeli historian) 500,000-600,000 (lower estimate).

The BOT (AI) provided me with a lengthy list of historians. I selected a number of them for your perusal:

Ilan Pappé (Israeli “New Historian” and political scientist) 750,000+ Palestinians
“More than 750,000 Palestinians” expelled from what became Israel in 1948. Academia+3University of California Press Online+3Institute for Palestine Studies+3

In his 2006 article “The 1948 Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine” he draws on Israeli archive material, the so‑called “Village Files” (1940‑47), the operational plan “Plan D” (Daleth), military records of depopulated Arab villages. Institute for Palestine Studies+2Yplus+2 He argues the expulsions were systematic and planned, and uses detailed village‑by‑village data for many cases.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilan_Papp%C3%A9
Pappé was born in Haifa, Israel, to a family of Ashkenazi Jews. His parents were German Jews who had fled Nazi persecution in the 1930s.[4] At the age of 18, he was drafted into the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and served in the Golan Heights during the Yom Kippur War in 1973.[9]

He graduated from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem in 1978 with a Bachelor of Arts (BA) degree.[10] He then moved to England to study history at the University of Oxford, completing a Doctor of Philosophy (DPhil) degree in 1984 under the supervision of British historians Albert Hourani and Roger Owen.[9] His doctoral thesis was titled "British foreign policy towards the Middle East, 1948-1951: Britain and the Arab-Israeli conflict"[11] and this became his first book, titled Britain and the Arab-Israeli Conflict.[8]


Walid Khalidi (Palestinian historian). 750,000 (oft quoted)
Through his All That Remains (1992), Khalidi uses UN data, Zionist and British archives, and oral histories to document the destruction and depopulation of over 400 Palestinian villages.

Often cited as in the “700,000‑900,000” range (with the ~750,000 figure commonly used) for the number of Palestinians displaced. Le Monde Diplomatique+2SpringerLink+2

His work (e.g., All That Remains: The Palestinian Villages Occupied and Depopulated by Israel in 1948) documents over 400 villages that were destroyed or depopulated. Wikipedia+1 He aggregates village‑level data and population statistics to arrive at his estimates.


Ilana Feldman (American historian) 700,000
Feldman uses a combination of historical records, oral interviews, and the evolution of refugee identity. In her work “Fields of Trauma” (2010), she examines the long-term displacement of Palestinians.

Zeev Sternhell (Israeli historian) 700,000-800,000
In The Founding Myths of Israel (1998), Sternhell discusses the ideological motivations behind the Zionist project and its impacts on Palestinian displacement.

Benny Morris (Israeli historian) Estimates roughly 600,000‑760,000 Palestinians left their homes in 1947‑49. Tidsskrift+1
In The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947‑1949 he uses Israeli military archives, British and American archives, and UN records. He breaks down the refugee exodus into waves and analyses cause (flight, military pressure, expulsions). Yplus+1

Nur Masalha (Palestinian historian) Argues “some three‑quarters of a million Palestinians” were evacuated/expelled in 1948. NAD+1
In his book Expulsion of the Palestinians: The Concept of “Transfer” in Zionist Political Thought and other works, he uses Zionist archival sources, Palestinian oral history, UN/UNRWA refugee registration figures, and demographic calculations to estimate the scale of displacement.

Efraim Karsh (Israeli historian) 500,000-600,000 (lower estimate)
Karsh’s estimate of lower numbers focuses on the voluntary nature of the exodus, stressing that many Palestinians fled due to the escalating violence and the Arab leaders' failure to protect them.

Le Monde diplomatique
‘Ten years of research into the 1947-49 war’
‘The expulsion of the Palestinians re-examined’
December 1997
https://mondediplo.com/1997/12/palestin ... hatgpt.com

[...]
"However, by the 1950s this version was already beginning to be contested by leading Israeli figures associated with the Communist Party and with elements of the Zionist left (notably Mapam). Later, in the mid-1980s, they were joined in their critique by a number of historians who described themselves as revisionist historians: Simha Flapan, Tom Segev, Avi Schlaim, Ilan Pappe and Benny Morris. It was Morris’s book, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem", that first prompted public concern (4) . Leaving aside differences of subject, methodology and viewpoint, what unites these historians is that they are bent on unpicking Israel’s national myths (5). They have focused particularly on the myths of the first Arab-Israeli war, contributing (albeit partially, as we shall see), to establishing the truth about the Palestinian exodus. And in the process they have incurred the wrath of Israel’s orthodox historians (6).

"This research activity was originally stimulated by two separate sets of events. First, the opening of Israeli archives, both state and private, covering the period in question. Here it is worth noting that the historians appear to have ignored almost entirely both the archives of the Arab countries (not that these are notable for their accessibility) and oral history potential among Palestinians themselves, where considerable work has been done by other historians. As the Palestinian historian, Nur Masalha, rightly says: "History and historiography ought not necessarily be written, exclusively or mainly, by the victors (7)".

WIKIPEDIA
'Causes of the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of ... %20exodus.

[b Historiography[/b]
[...]
"Scholarship today generally considers that violence and direct expulsions perpetrated by Zionist forces throughout both phases of the 1947-1949 Palestine war (both during the civil war phase and during the 1948-1949 Arab-Israeli war) were the primary cause of the displacement of the Palestinians.[27][28][29][30][31] Many historians consider that the events of 1948 fit the definition of ethnic cleansing.[32]

In a review of scholarship on the topic, Jerome Slater found that later scholarship had proven false "the conventional Zionist-Israeli mythology" that most of the 700,000 Palestinian Arabs had "fled" voluntarily.[33]

The "mythology" held that until the Arab states invaded Palestine to begin the 1948 Arab-Israeli War that the Zionist forces had attempted to demonstrate a willingness to coexist and attempted to keep the Arabs to stay.

The New Historians have however established this to be false, and that "well before the Arab invasion some 300,000 to 400,000 Palestinians (out of a population of about 900,000 at the time of the UN partition) were either forcibly expelled— sometimes by forced marches with only the clothes on their backs—or fled as a result of Israeli psychological warfare, economic pressures, and violence, designed to empty the area that would become Israel of most of its Arab inhabitants."[34] Rather than the Arab invasion being responsible for the flight of the Palestinian Arabs, Walid Khalidi wrote that: "It was not the entry of the Arab armies that caused the exodus. It was the exodus that caused the entry of the Arab armies."[34]

Massacres and forced expulsions of Palestinian Arabs by Zionist forces were either tolerated or implemented by the Yishuv leadership,[citation needed] with Yitzhak Rabin reporting on the orders he received in the expulsion of 50,000-70,000 Palestinians from Lydda and Ramle that David Ben-Gurion [Zionist leader] "waved his hand in a gesture which said, 'Drive them out.'"[35][36][37][38]

Tom Segev, discussing Plan Dalet, wrote that Yigael Yadin clarified Ben-Gurion's instructions to "break the spirit" of the Arab population, adding an appendix to the plan that gave the commanders the options of expelling the Arabs, cutting off essential services, including water and electricity, and "sowing terror" through propaganda.[39]

Starry: Kuk, In future, BE MORE OBJECTIVE AND LOGICAL.

[roc_enthusiast]

The state of that total mentaller, talking about being "objective" and "logical". Yeah, objective" - just like your Ilan Pappe the radical leftist said:

"... I admit that my ideology influences my historical writings… Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts. Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers...". (“An Interview of Ilan Pappé,” Baudouin Loos, Le Soir [Bruxelles],Nov. 29, 1999)

Or, Benny Morris, who once he had delved deeper into the Isrseli archives changed his tune. In fact he upbraided people misusing his previous writings. He even wrote into the Irish Times:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/lett ... s-1.896017

Madam, - Israel-haters are fond of citing - and more often, mis-citing - my work in support of their arguments. Let me offer some corrections.

The Palestinian Arabs were not responsible "in some bizarre way" (David Norris, January 31st) for what befell them in 1948. Their responsibility was very direct and simple.

In defiance of the will of the international community, as embodied in the UN General Assembly Resolution of November 29th, 1947 (No. 181), they launched hostilities against the Jewish community in Palestine in the hope of aborting the emergence of the Jewish state and perhaps destroying that community. But they lost; and one of the results was the displacement of 700,000 of them from their homes.

It is true, as Erskine Childers pointed out long ago, that there were no Arab radio broadcasts urging the Arabs to flee en masse; indeed, there were broadcasts by several Arab radio stations urging them to stay put. But, on the local level, in dozens of localities around Palestine, Arab leaders advised or ordered the evacuation of women and children or whole communities, as occurred in Haifa in late April, 1948. And Haifa's Jewish mayor, Shabtai Levy, did, on April 22nd, plead with them to stay, to no avail.

Most of Palestine's 700,000 "refugees" fled their homes because of the flail of war (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of victorious Arab invaders). But it is also true that there were several dozen sites, including Lydda and Ramla, from which Arab communities were expelled by Jewish troops.

The displacement of the 700,000 Arabs who became "refugees" - and I put the term in inverted commas, as two-thirds of them were displaced from one part of Palestine to another and not from their country (which is the usual definition of a refugee) - was not a "racist crime" (David Landy, January 24th) but the result of a national conflict and a war, with religious overtones, from the Muslim perspective, launched by the Arabs themselves.

There was no Zionist "plan" or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of "ethnic cleansing". Plan Dalet (Plan D), of March 10th, 1948 (it is open and available for all to read in the IDF Archive and in various publications), was the master plan of the Haganah - the Jewish military force that became the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) - to counter the expected pan-Arab assault on the emergent Jewish state. That's what it explicitly states and that's what it was. And the invasion of the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq duly occurred, on May 15th.

It is true that Plan D gave the regional commanders carte blanche to occupy and garrison or expel and destroy the Arab villages along and behind the front lines and the anticipated Arab armies' invasion routes. And it is also true that mid-way in the 1948 war the Israeli leaders decided to bar the return of the "refugees" (those "refugees" who had just assaulted the Jewish community), viewing them as a potential fifth column and threat to the Jewish state's existence. I for one cannot fault their fears or logic.

The demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies - much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies. And there is a connection between the two.

I would recommend that the likes of Norris and Landy read some history books and become acquainted with the facts, not recycle shopworn Arab propaganda. They might then learn, for example, that the "Palestine War" of 1948 (the "War of Independence," as Israelis call it) began in November 1947, not in May 1948. By May 14th close to 2,000 Israelis had died - of the 5,800 dead suffered by Israel in the whole war (ie almost 1 per cent of the Jewish population of Palestine/Israel, which was about 650,000).

- Yours, etc,
Prof BENNY MORRIS, Li-On, Israel.

But the most accomplished, serious and erudite historian among all mentioned in the above post, is undoubtedly Efraim Karsh.

And it was he who in fact corrected in the peer reviewed academic correspondence the mistakes made by the likes of Benny Morris, that he made in the early days of the so called "New Historian" movement.

Final word, it should go without saying that these deliberate distortion and lies that the anti-Israel zealots promote is another key obstacle to any realistic chance at peace:

The Nakba Obsession - The Palestinian national narrative is the biggest obstacle to peace in the Middle East.

[roc_enthusiast]

Anyway, on this matter of the refugees, I think there has been no clearer exposition of the current situation, the intentions, and the history of it, than the presentation Einat Wilf gave quite recently, speaking to a UN investigative committee about it.



Really worth a listen to understand this conflict.

Einat of course was a former MK in the Labour Party and she was part of Barak’s Independence faction.

The central danger she tends to highlight now in general is how in the current mutation of antisemitism there is this relentless equation of Israel and Zionism with whatever evil is current in the prevailing Zeitgeist – imperialism, colonialism, apartheid, white supremacy, genocide, in our own Zeitgeist.

She calls it "the placard strategy" for obvious reasons.

Of course, study it, and you find the origins of these libels in Nazi, Islamist, and Soviet genealogies. (See the link in my previous post).

You also find if you look, the atrocities these libels inspired, including the massacres in Mandatory Palestine, the Farhud, Mizrahi dispossession, Soviet purges and executions, and even the Gaza war itself.

And of course there is the discrimination and violence these libels fuel right across the West today, especially at the current juncture.

But back to the topic of "refugees", or perhaps more so, it is an idea of refugees, and "return" - I would say intended to claim from the Jews their right to return to Palestine. I.e. The usual strategy of inversion.

I think along these lines mostly owing to how, being close to some families of Jews, I have listened to friends tell me how their grandfathers and ninety generations of grandfathers before them, chanted twice a day in Hebrew, "And he will walk us in sovereignty back to our country", and much more in that vein.

So compare and contrast that with the story Einat Wilf tells above. And judge for yourself where lies the heart of the situation concerning "refugees".

[ceannairceach]

KuK,

You are, of course, welcome to correct Wikipedia (see below link).

Looking at your post, you appear to be replying with a BOT answer. KuK, How did you prompt the BOT (AI) ??

For parity I decided to do the same and asked the BOT to compile a comprehensive list of historians who have written about the ethnic cleansing / displacement of Palestinians expelled or fleeing during the 1947-1949 period around the founding of the State of Israel. And to include a mixture of estimates from various perspectives — both higher and lower numbers — along with their methodologies and the sources they use. FAIR ???

The consensus is around 750,000 expulsions. The lowest number was from Efraim Karsh (an Israeli historian) 500,000-600,000 (lower estimate).

The BOT (AI) provided me with a lengthy list of historians. I selected a number of them for your perusal:

Ilan Pappé (Israeli “New Historian” and political scientist) 750,000+ Palestinians
“More than 750,000 Palestinians” expelled from what became Israel in 1948. Academia+3University of California Press Online+3Institute for Palestine Studies+3

In his 2006 article “The 1948 Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine” he draws on Israeli archive material, the so‑called “Village Files” (1940‑47), the operational plan “Plan D” (Daleth), military records of depopulated Arab villages. Institute for Palestine Studies+2Yplus+2 He argues the expulsions were systematic and planned, and uses detailed village‑by‑village data for many cases.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilan_Papp%C3%A9
Pappé was born in Haifa, Israel, to a family of Ashkenazi Jews. His parents were German Jews who had fled Nazi persecution in the 1930s.[4] At the age of 18, he was drafted into the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and served in the Golan Heights during the Yom Kippur War in 1973.[9]

He graduated from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem in 1978 with a Bachelor of Arts (BA) degree.[10] He then moved to England to study history at the University of Oxford, completing a Doctor of Philosophy (DPhil) degree in 1984 under the supervision of British historians Albert Hourani and Roger Owen.[9] His doctoral thesis was titled "British foreign policy towards the Middle East, 1948-1951: Britain and the Arab-Israeli conflict"[11] and this became his first book, titled Britain and the Arab-Israeli Conflict.[8]


Walid Khalidi (Palestinian historian). 750,000 (oft quoted)
Through his All That Remains (1992), Khalidi uses UN data, Zionist and British archives, and oral histories to document the destruction and depopulation of over 400 Palestinian villages.

Often cited as in the “700,000‑900,000” range (with the ~750,000 figure commonly used) for the number of Palestinians displaced. Le Monde Diplomatique+2SpringerLink+2

His work (e.g., All That Remains: The Palestinian Villages Occupied and Depopulated by Israel in 1948) documents over 400 villages that were destroyed or depopulated. Wikipedia+1 He aggregates village‑level data and population statistics to arrive at his estimates.


Ilana Feldman (American historian) 700,000
Feldman uses a combination of historical records, oral interviews, and the evolution of refugee identity. In her work “Fields of Trauma” (2010), she examines the long-term displacement of Palestinians.

Zeev Sternhell (Israeli historian) 700,000-800,000
In The Founding Myths of Israel (1998), Sternhell discusses the ideological motivations behind the Zionist project and its impacts on Palestinian displacement.

Benny Morris (Israeli historian) Estimates roughly 600,000‑760,000 Palestinians left their homes in 1947‑49. Tidsskrift+1
In The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947‑1949 he uses Israeli military archives, British and American archives, and UN records. He breaks down the refugee exodus into waves and analyses cause (flight, military pressure, expulsions). Yplus+1

Nur Masalha (Palestinian historian) Argues “some three‑quarters of a million Palestinians” were evacuated/expelled in 1948. NAD+1
In his book Expulsion of the Palestinians: The Concept of “Transfer” in Zionist Political Thought and other works, he uses Zionist archival sources, Palestinian oral history, UN/UNRWA refugee registration figures, and demographic calculations to estimate the scale of displacement.

Efraim Karsh (Israeli historian) 500,000-600,000 (lower estimate)
Karsh’s estimate of lower numbers focuses on the voluntary nature of the exodus, stressing that many Palestinians fled due to the escalating violence and the Arab leaders' failure to protect them.

Le Monde diplomatique
‘Ten years of research into the 1947-49 war’
‘The expulsion of the Palestinians re-examined’
December 1997
https://mondediplo.com/1997/12/palestin ... hatgpt.com

[...]
"However, by the 1950s this version was already beginning to be contested by leading Israeli figures associated with the Communist Party and with elements of the Zionist left (notably Mapam). Later, in the mid-1980s, they were joined in their critique by a number of historians who described themselves as revisionist historians: Simha Flapan, Tom Segev, Avi Schlaim, Ilan Pappe and Benny Morris. It was Morris’s book, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem", that first prompted public concern (4) . Leaving aside differences of subject, methodology and viewpoint, what unites these historians is that they are bent on unpicking Israel’s national myths (5). They have focused particularly on the myths of the first Arab-Israeli war, contributing (albeit partially, as we shall see), to establishing the truth about the Palestinian exodus. And in the process they have incurred the wrath of Israel’s orthodox historians (6).

"This research activity was originally stimulated by two separate sets of events. First, the opening of Israeli archives, both state and private, covering the period in question. Here it is worth noting that the historians appear to have ignored almost entirely both the archives of the Arab countries (not that these are notable for their accessibility) and oral history potential among Palestinians themselves, where considerable work has been done by other historians. As the Palestinian historian, Nur Masalha, rightly says: "History and historiography ought not necessarily be written, exclusively or mainly, by the victors (7)".

WIKIPEDIA
'Causes of the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of ... %20exodus.

[b Historiography[/b]
[...]
"Scholarship today generally considers that violence and direct expulsions perpetrated by Zionist forces throughout both phases of the 1947-1949 Palestine war (both during the civil war phase and during the 1948-1949 Arab-Israeli war) were the primary cause of the displacement of the Palestinians.[27][28][29][30][31] Many historians consider that the events of 1948 fit the definition of ethnic cleansing.[32]

In a review of scholarship on the topic, Jerome Slater found that later scholarship had proven false "the conventional Zionist-Israeli mythology" that most of the 700,000 Palestinian Arabs had "fled" voluntarily.[33]

The "mythology" held that until the Arab states invaded Palestine to begin the 1948 Arab-Israeli War that the Zionist forces had attempted to demonstrate a willingness to coexist and attempted to keep the Arabs to stay.

The New Historians have however established this to be false, and that "well before the Arab invasion some 300,000 to 400,000 Palestinians (out of a population of about 900,000 at the time of the UN partition) were either forcibly expelled— sometimes by forced marches with only the clothes on their backs—or fled as a result of Israeli psychological warfare, economic pressures, and violence, designed to empty the area that would become Israel of most of its Arab inhabitants."[34] Rather than the Arab invasion being responsible for the flight of the Palestinian Arabs, Walid Khalidi wrote that: "It was not the entry of the Arab armies that caused the exodus. It was the exodus that caused the entry of the Arab armies."[34]

Massacres and forced expulsions of Palestinian Arabs by Zionist forces were either tolerated or implemented by the Yishuv leadership,[citation needed] with Yitzhak Rabin reporting on the orders he received in the expulsion of 50,000-70,000 Palestinians from Lydda and Ramle that David Ben-Gurion [Zionist leader] "waved his hand in a gesture which said, 'Drive them out.'"[35][36][37][38]

Tom Segev, discussing Plan Dalet, wrote that Yigael Yadin clarified Ben-Gurion's instructions to "break the spirit" of the Arab population, adding an appendix to the plan that gave the commanders the options of expelling the Arabs, cutting off essential services, including water and electricity, and "sowing terror" through propaganda.[39]

Starry: Kuk, In future, BE MORE OBJECTIVE AND LOGICAL.

You do realise that link dumping with little or no comment is not only against the rules but bloody pointless as no one will read that ?

It’s a discussion board - try to discuss.

And tbh the absolute cheek to accuse a decent poster of using AI when you just cut and paste crap.

[knownunknown]

You do realise that link dumping with little or no comment is not only against the rules but bloody pointless as no one will read that ?

It’s a discussion board - try to discuss.

And tbh the absolute cheek to accuse a decent poster of using AI when you just cut and paste crap.

That image was generated by AI but I did it to save time, I know about this from before having researched it. Apparently I was wrong when I said 800,000 though, it’s closer to 1 million.

Here’s the exact same data on Wikipedia and we know starry likes Wikipedia.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_ex ... slim_world

[knownunknown]

KuK,

You are, of course, welcome to correct Wikipedia (see below link).

Looking at your post, you appear to be replying with a BOT answer. KuK, How did you prompt the BOT (AI) ??

For parity I decided to do the same and asked the BOT to compile a comprehensive list of historians who have written about the ethnic cleansing / displacement of Palestinians expelled or fleeing during the 1947-1949 period around the founding of the State of Israel. And to include a mixture of estimates from various perspectives — both higher and lower numbers — along with their methodologies and the sources they use. FAIR ???

The consensus is around 750,000 expulsions. The lowest number was from Efraim Karsh (an Israeli historian) 500,000-600,000 (lower estimate).

The BOT (AI) provided me with a lengthy list of historians. I selected a number of them for your perusal:


Starry: Kuk, In future, BE MORE OBJECTIVE AND LOGICAL.

I asked it, “how many Jewish people have been displaced or fled Arab countries in the twentieth century and the reasoning for doing so”, then I asked it to put into chart form to be easily read.

I gave it an open ended question, it could return something favouring my position or it could be against it.

The question you gave the machine guarantees a result that you favour.

To ask it “ to compile a comprehensive list of historians who have written about the ethnic cleansing” the bot will always a return an answer you’re looking for. In the question you have already established ethnic cleansing and are just looking for confirmation.

Instead maybe try asking it, how many people became refugees following the Israeli war of independence and what was the reason for the displacement? Can you give an exact response as possible?

Then your answer won’t be steeped in bias.

[AnFearRéabhlóideach]

I asked it, “how many Jewish people have been displaced or fled Arab countries in the twentieth century and the reasoning for doing so”, then I asked it to put into chart form to be easily read.

I gave it an open ended question, it could return something favouring my position or it could be against it.

The question you gave the machine guarantees a result that you favour.

To ask it “ to compile a comprehensive list of historians who have written about the ethnic cleansing” the bot will always a return an answer you’re looking for. In the question you have already established ethnic cleansing and are just looking for confirmation.

Instead maybe try asking it, how many people became refugees following the Israeli war of independence and what was the reason for the displacement? Can you give an exact response as possible?

Then your answer won’t be steeped in bias.

It's a wonderful world that we live in when everyone can cherrypick data and spout lies or fabrications. Let's try to be somewhat objective. The Nakba was ethnic cleansing, end of story. There was a UN partition plan put in place in 1947 to divvy up Palestine and create a new Israeli state. The leaders of the Arab countries rejected the UN plan, but so did the Israeli terrorist organizations in the territory of British mandate Palestine still nominally under British control.

In November 1947 the Hanagah and other Jewish terror groups began instigating the Nakba on a small scale, killing and terrorising Palestinian villages near Jewish controlled territory. This terror was planned by the later founders of the Israeli state and it kept escalating until March 1948 when Plan Dalet was implemented by Ben Gurion, later the 1st Prime minister of Israel. The Jewish terror groups which had formed into semi-regular forces began systematically clearing Palestinian villages under this plan. This involved massacres and planned assaults on Palestinian civilian population centres where entire villages would be burnt out or destroyed with whatever means were available. If resistance was met, Palestinians were shot down mercilessly by these Jewish terror groups, and the rest expelled from their homes.

The whole logic of this operation rested on the notion that the Brits were getting ready to pull out and leave the mess behind to whatever fate befell it. The Jewish terror groups like Hanagah did not want to follow the UN partition plan and did a land grab through ethnically cleansing as many Palestinians as they could so they could hold this in any withdrawal negotiations with the Brits who they were simultaneously attacking as they attacked the Palestinians in 1948. Police stations, military barracks and other strong points were attacked throughout British mandate Palestine as the Nakba unfolded to weaken British control and strengthen the Jewish terror group's hand in whatever settlement followed the Brits inevitable withdrawal.

750,000 people were expelled during the Nakba through British mandate Palestine. That figure is widely quoted and accepted by most Arab, Israeli and international scholars of the subject. Still don't believe me here's the Wikipedia entry on the Nakba, reference 19, on that 750,000 figure that is very thoroughly backed up.

Abu-Laban & Bakan 2022, p. 511, "over 80 per cent"; Pappe 2022, p. 128, "Three-quarters of a million Palestinians ... almost 90 per cent"; Khalidi 2020, p. 60, "Some 80 percent ... At least 720,000 ..."; Slater 2020, pp. 81 ("about 750,000"), 83 ("over 80 percent"), and 350 ("It is no longer a matter of serious dispute that in the 1947–48 period – beginning well before the Arab invasion in May 1948 – some 700,000 to 750,000 Palestinians were expelled from or fled their villages and homes in Israel in fear of their lives – an entirely justifiable fear, in light of massacres carried out by Zionist forces."); Shenhav 2019, p. 49, "750,000"; Bashir & Goldberg 2018, p. 7, "some 750,000"; Bishara 2017, pp. 138 ("expelled close to 750,000") and 148 n. 21 ("number of the refugees displaced ranged between 700,000 and 900,000"; Bäuml 2017, p. 105, "approximately 750,000"; Cohen 2017, p. 87, "approximately 700,000 ... between half a million and a million"; Manna 2013, pp. 93 ("approximately 750,000") and 99 n. 12 ("Recently, both Palestinian and Israeli scholars seem to agree on this estimate of 700,000–750,000 refugees."); Masalha 2012, pp. 2, "about 90 per cent ... 750,000 refugees"; Wolfe 2012, p. 133, "some three quarters of a million"; Davis 2011, pp. 7 ("more than 750,000") and 237 n. 21 ("Most scholars generally agree with the UN number, which it was somewhere in the vicinity of 750,000"); Lentin 2010, pp. 6 ("at least 80 per cent") and 7 ("more than 700,000"); Ghanim 2009, p. 25, "Around 750,000-900,000"; Kimmerling 2008, p. 280, "700,000 to 900,000"; Morris 2008, p. 407, "some seven hundred thousand"; Sa'di 2007, pp. 297, "at least 780,000 ... more than 80 percent.

No bot, no man, or no AI is gonna convince anyone who bothers to read, that the Nakba was anything other than ethnic cleansing and mass murder carried out by Jewish terrorist groups on a largely innocent Palestinian population. The parallels with the modern Gazan genocide are very apparent too. Only difference now is that Netyenyahoo and the leaders of the rogue Zionist state can pretend this is ever so slightly more legitimate now Israel exists. Whereas when Ben Gurion and his Zionist terrorist organization expelled the Palestinians, many of whom are ancestors of much of Gaza's modern population, they had zero legitimacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet

[AnFearRéabhlóideach]

You do realise that link dumping with little or no comment is not only against the rules but bloody pointless as no one will read that ?

It’s a discussion board - try to discuss.

And tbh the absolute cheek to accuse a decent poster of using AI when you just cut and paste crap.

You do realise a two or three sentence as hominem is just about the most useless contribution anyone can make to a political discussion. However, that's all you ever do here. You should practice what you preach. I haven't seen one contribution of yours on this thread that even registers as political debate. Reading is good for you. You should try it once in a while. Who knows you might expand your horizons dear ceannairceach.

[AnFearRéabhlóideach]

Well well well. Looks like the Zionist government couldn't contain themselves any longer. They just had to let the jets rip over Gaza one more time. Breaching ceazefires comes as easy as breathing or lying to them. It sounds so simple doesn't it?

'Cease' + 'fire'. The word practically explains itself yet the Zionist government evidently can't understand that or never wanted to cease firing on the innocent Gazan population. Suppose that's why they've killed up 100,000 in Gaza, probably many more thousands than that though in reality. Just can't help themselves can they. I guess it's just in their nature.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog ... h-crossing

[knownunknown]

. The Jewish terror groups like Hanagah did not want to follow the UN partition plan and did a land grab through ethnically cleansing as many Palestinians as they could so they could hold this in any withdrawal negotiations with the Brits who they were simultaneously attacking as they attacked the Palestinians in 1948. Police stations, military barracks and other strong points were attacked throughout British mandate Palestine as the Nakba unfolded to weaken British control and strengthen the Jewish terror group's hand in whatever settlement followed the Brits inevitable withdrawal.

750,000 people were expelled during the Nakba through British mandate Palestine. That figure is widely quoted and accepted by most Arab, Israeli and international scholars of the subject. Still don't believe me here's the Wikipedia entry on the Nakba, reference 19, on that 750,000 figure that is very thoroughly backed up.

No it’s not. Some of those references are crazy studies citing George Floyd and some aren’t saying what the statement says they are saying.

Both the UN and the Red Cross have both said that a majority of what would become refugees after the war fled their homes and were not forced out. They both say a large chunk were also forced out because they were actively involved in the fighting and would not come to agreements with the Israelis for peaceful co-habitation.

It was “Palestinians” who wouldn’t agree to the partition plan the UN proposed, they wouldn’t even come to the table. All anrab states voted angainst it; Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Transjordan [Jordan], Saudi Arabia, Yemen. They refused to ancknowledge a state of Israel.
Instead they declared war on the newly founded state. They said it was all theirs. They demanded a single Arab state at the UN and this is well documented. Your poor understanding of history definitely taints your understanding of this current conflict.

The Palestinians who chose to live in peace in Israel now represent 2.1million Israelis, or ‘48 Arabs as they’re known as. It’s not hasbara and it’s not a wild claim coming from a hallucinating ai bot.

The Arab Higher Committee (AHC), representing Palestinian Arabs, formally rejected the UN Partition Plan. On September 29, 1947, the AHC declared:
“Palestine’s Arabs will oppose with all means possible any scheme to partition the land or give the Jews any preference.”

https://israeled.org/arab-committee-rej ... tion-plan/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Na ... _Palestine
https://www.icrc.org/sites/default/file ... israel.pdf
https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/ ... 122746.pdf

[AnFearRéabhlóideach]

750,000 people were not expelled, 750,000 became refugees. A fair portion were expelled, maybe 50%, about 40% fled due to fear and 10% were ordered to leave by the Arab armies that were marching on Israel at the time to destroy it, 5 of them. The Arab generals promised they could return when the Israelis became fish food.

150,000 Arabs remained in Israel, were not expelled and did not flee. They now represent some 2million people living there with the greatest freedoms in the Middle East, not an apartheid as some claim.

850,000 Jews were expelled or fled their homes from Arab countries post 1948 with the majority resettling in Israel. Do you know how many Jewish people remain in these countries?

1948 was a long time ago and there have been several attempts to reimburse many of the refugees since but they don’t want to give their “right of return” in exchange for alternate compensation, something the UN has said was acceptable.

Just wanted to deal with your interpretation of apartheid. Israel is an apartheid state. It is first and foremost a Jewish state. Though it's arguable that even Jewish individuals who migrated their face plenty of racism and discrimination. For example, the Ashkenazi Jews, Jews of European ethnic descent, have discriminated heavily against the Sephardic Jews (Jews of Iberian or North African descent) and Mizrahi Jews (Jews of Middle Eastern or Arab descent) after they began migrating there after the foundation of Israel. Israel can't even prevent racism and discrimination against other Jews, never mind against the Arabs, Christians and Palestinians who live inside it's current borders.

As for the Arabs, Druze and other groups in Israel, the figures don't lie. Israeli Arabs are the poorest and most marginalised demographic in Israel. The poverty rates in that group, discrimination they face in the Jewish dominated courts and their struggle for recognition of property or land rights, and their deliberate segregation in certain areas are clear hallmarks of Apartheid and racist policies tacitly endorsed by the 'only democracy in the Middle East'. Other minority groups like the Arab Druze, where as many as 6 in 10 of their population are conscripted or serve in the IDF, face many similar problems of legal discrimination and blatant racism despite the Golani brigade of the IDF, largely made up of Druze, often being the cannon fodder first thrown into meat grinders like the current Gazan slaughter by the IDF. Even if Arabs diligently serve the Zionist cause, they still treat you like something on the bottom of their shoe. This study below by an American institution, Brandeis University, goes into great detail of the plight of the minorities in Israel and the Apartheid they face daily under the Zionist regime.

https://www.brandeis.edu/crown/publicat ... meb158.pdf

[knownunknown]

Just wanted to deal with your interpretation of apartheid. Israel is an apartheid state. It is first and foremost a Jewish state. Though it's arguable that even Jewish individuals who migrated their face plenty of racism and discrimination. For example, the Ashkenazi Jews, Jews of European ethnic descent, have discriminated heavily against the Sephardic Jews (Jews of Iberian or North African descent) and Mizrahi Jews (Jews of Middle Eastern or Arab descent) after they began migrating there after the foundation of Israel. Israel can't even prevent racism and discrimination against other Jews, never mind against the Arabs, Christians and Palestinians who live inside it's current borders.

As for the Arabs, Druze and other groups in Israel, the figures don't lie. Israeli Arabs are the poorest and most marginalised demographic in Israel. The poverty rates in that group, discrimination they face in the Jewish dominated courts and their struggle for recognition of property or land rights, and their deliberate segregation in certain areas are clear hallmarks of Apartheid and racist policies tacitly endorsed by the 'only democracy in the Middle East'. Other minority groups like the Arab Druze, where as many as 6 in 10 of their population are conscripted or serve in the IDF, face many similar problems of legal discrimination and blatant racism despite the Golani brigade of the IDF, largely made up of Druze, often being the cannon fodder first thrown into meat grinders like the current Gazan slaughter by the IDF. Even if Arabs diligently serve the Zionist cause, they still treat you like something on the bottom of their shoe. This study below by an American institution, Brandeis University, goes into great detail of the plight of the minorities in Israel and the Apartheid they face daily under the Zionist regime.

https://www.brandeis.edu/crown/publicat ... meb158.pdf

Apartheid Israel with an Arab on the Supreme Court? You’re away with the fairies.