Language Fascists

[NewBroom]

I see the language fascists are on the march in Dublin, demanding their rights.

Let's remind ourselves that daily speakers as gaeilge are tiny in number, maybe 3% at most.

But everywhere you go now, Irish is in your face, you can't avoid it. Every piece of state literature, on the buses, the trains, the signage. And not only is Irish on them, it's always at the top or in front.

The language fascists not only want more funding to support their cushy jobs. But increasingly they want to shove the language in front of the other 95%+ whether we like it or not.

[schmittel]

I don't have a word of Irish myself, but I never really understand why so many people are against it being more prominent in our culture and society.

What's the issue?

[jmayo]

I see the language fascists are on the march in Dublin, demanding their rights.

Let's remind ourselves that daily speakers as gaeilge are tiny in number, maybe 3% at most.

But everywhere you go now, Irish is in your face, you can't avoid it. Every piece of state literature, on the buses, the trains, the signage. And not only is Irish on them, it's always at the top or in front.

The language fascists not only want more funding to support their cushy jobs. But increasingly they want to shove the language in front of the other 95%+ whether we like it or not.

Would you rather that it was Arabic, because eventually that is what you're going to be getting.

[ceannairceach]

Would you rather that it was Arabic, because eventually that is what you're going to be getting.

You beat me on here to say that.

I only know about 6 words as Gaelilge but I like hearing it - but don’t forget the same people who hate us flying out flag are probably going to hate the language too.

[NattyO]

The word “fascist” must be the most elastic word in the English language. It effectively means literally anything one wants it to mean, though I hadn’t heard to applied to people who wish to speak their native language before.

[knownunknown]

Had a family member tell me recently they thought the Irish president should speak Irish. I mentioned how difficult it was to find candidates already, they shrugged and said “well, that’s what I think”.

[NewBroom]

Would you rather that it was Arabic, because eventually that is what you're going to be getting.

You miss the point. There well maybe many speakers of Arabic, Polish or Ukrainian or whatever in the country and quite possibly more daily speakers of these languages than Gaeilge.

But and it's a huge BUT... Article 8 of Bunreacht na hÉireann or the Irish Constitution 1937, states that the Irish language is the first official language and that the English language is a second official language.

Did you know that as a speaker of Hiberno English that you are effectively some sort of second class citizen? To be looked down on and pitied. Article 8 of Bunreacht na hÉireann does not confer this lofty position and degree of primacy on Arabic, Polish or Ukrainian or whatever.

It's this provision of the Constitution, a Constitution that no one alive likely voted on that is being used as a sledgehammer across public policy. Where the language movement hasn't succeeded by either persuasion or compulsion, it has adopted the legal approach in the last two decades. And is using this Article 8 to force public bodies to have all communication in both languages but also that Irish MUST come first.

We will never be forced to see Arabic, Polish or Ukrainian on our buses, on our trains or on our roads, in every communication. But you will see Irish and see it first & foremost, that is what is happening this past few years. Just look about you and open your eyes! There has been a big crackdown on public bodies.

The needs of the large majority of the public are irrelevant. The needs of tourists are irrelevant. The needs of the language fascists take primacy now.

[schmittel]

We will never be forced to see Arabic, Polish or Ukrainian on our buses, on our trains or on our roads, in every communication. But you will see Irish and see it first & foremost, that is what is happening this past few years. Just look about you and open your eyes!

I for one think this is something to be applauded. Given all the things wrong in Ireland today, I am genuinely amazed why this situation is something that could prove such a strong reaction. Certainly I can't believe it's a view shared by many.

Imagine the uproar if the government said "We're scrapping the Irish language on all government communications, street signs, etc etc, and we're doing this because it makes no sense to elevate the Irish language above Arabic, Polish or Ukrainian."

It wouldn't just be the bogeymen of the far right that would be up in arms, the vast, vast majority of the country would be outraged and rightly so.

[Bubblypop]

It's ironic that some of the most vocal opponents to the immigration of foreign people to this country are also the most vocal against keeping our own language alive.
I see no harm whatsoever in having Irish first and foremost, it doesn't make anyone a second class citizen, I fail to see how it possibly could.
There is really nothing like seeing your own language and listening to people speaking it. I have no idea why anyone could possibly be anti the Irish language

[NattyO]

It's ironic that some of the most vocal opponents to the immigration of foreign people to this country are also the most vocal against keeping our own language alive.
I see no harm whatsoever in having Irish first and foremost, it doesn't make anyone a second class citizen, I fail to see how it possibly could.
There is really nothing like seeing your own language and listening to people speaking it. I have no idea why anyone could possibly be anti the Irish language

If you remove the needless and petty first paragraph, I agree completely. Our native language, one of the few things about is as a people that hasn’t yet been labelled far right (now that our flag has been) should be cherished and nourished.

[Headshot]

Fair play to them and well done for standing up for our national language

I know from recent articles the government are doing their upmost best to house the illegals in the Gaeltacht area and diluting the language even more.

[Bubblypop]

If you remove the needless and petty first paragraph, I agree completely. Our native language, one of the few things about is as a people that hasn’t yet been labelled far right (now that our flag has been) should be cherished and nourished.

Unfortunately, our flag has always been divisive! Republicans hijacked it for years. I actually think it would be a good thing if everyone embraced our flag, many nationalities have great pride in their flag, if like to see that here. And our language likewise. I remember as a child being in Wales and hearing Welsh being spoken, funnily I could recognise some words as like Irish and some as like french ( to my mind) it actually awakened a massive interest in languages in me. I worked with a man who didn't speak English until he went to school, a native Irish speaker, you could hear it when he spoke English.
I'm rambling! Basically I believe our language should be given every opportunity to flourish

[NattyO]

Unfortunately, our flag has always been divisive! Republicans hijacked it for years. I actually think it would be a good thing if everyone embraced our flag, many nationalities have great pride in their flag, if like to see that here. And our language likewise. I remember as a child being in Wales and hearing Welsh being spoken, funnily I could recognise some words as like Irish and some as like french ( to my mind) it actually awakened a massive interest in languages in me. I worked with a man who didn't speak English until he went to school, a native Irish speaker, you could hear it when he spoke English.
I'm rambling! Basically I believe our language should be given every opportunity to flourish

Unfortunately the main reason that republicans were able to make the flag a divisive symbol was because they were allowed to - the governments of the day would have taken that power away easily by making the flying of the flag a normal part of everyday Irish life - just as Jack Charlton, of all people, eventually did. It’s one of the reasons I am very enthusiastic about the current move to fly the flag from lampposts and houses everywhere - it removes the lefts ability to paint the flag as racist/nazi/exclusionary or whatever their social media tells them this week. Our flag is part of our Irish identity and we should never be ashamed to fly it, no matter what the useful idiots of foreign-funded NGO’s might try to tell us.

[Belladonna]

I love that I can speak a bit of Irish. I wish that we, as a whole, could be like Wales is about Welsh.

[NewBroom]

I like the cupla focal as much as anyone and I'd even take a bet that I have a higher degree of fluency that some commenting above.

But again you choose to miss the point. I have no problem at all with gaeilge in Gaeltacht areas, I'd even be happy to see it made compulsory there. I have no problem at all with others outside Gaeltacht regions wishing to do their business through Irish when they deal with a public body, say social welfare or planning. All for it, in their own private time.

But..... 97% of the state is not a Gaeltacht and in this 97% of the state Hiberno English is the principal language. And I do object to the increasingly successful attempts by the Irish language lobby to use Article 8 to make Irish the first language in this 97% of the state. It isn't and it never will be the first language. So public communications are intended to well, communicate to the public. Therefore it follows that the primary language on signs and in written communications should be in English. If Irish is needed as well on these, it should be of a secondary nature.

There is a need to have a referendum on this article and reverse this point of primacy for Gaeilge. It was never more than aspirational, just like many parts of the constitution. I very much doubt that the drafters ever intended for it to used to impose a regime on the vast majority.

Watch this space, I predict we'll see a gathering kickback against this implementation of the Official Languages Act.

[NewBroom]

It's ironic that some of the most vocal opponents to the immigration of foreign people to this country are also the most vocal against keeping our own language alive.
I see no harm whatsoever in having Irish first and foremost, it doesn't make anyone a second class citizen, I fail to see how it possibly could.
There is really nothing like seeing your own language and listening to people speaking it. I have no idea why anyone could possibly be anti the Irish language

This is a gross mis characterisation of what I have written. You're shoehorning in some agendas of your own and misrepresenting. But quelle surprise at that.

[Bubblypop]

This is a gross mis characterisation of what I have written. You're shoehorning in some agendas of your own and misrepresenting. But quelle surprise at that.

If it is, please point out the misrepresentation.

[schmittel]

I like the cupla focal as much as anyone and I'd even take a bet that I have a higher degree of fluency that some commenting above.

But again you choose to miss the point. I have no problem at all with gaeilge in Gaeltacht areas, I'd even be happy to see it made compulsory there. I have no problem at all with others outside Gaeltacht regions wishing to do their business through Irish when they deal with a public body, say social welfare or planning. All for it, in their own private time.

But..... 97% of the state is not a Gaeltacht and in this 97% of the state Hiberno English is the principal language. And I do object to the increasingly successful attempts by the Irish language lobby to use Article 8 to make Irish the first language in this 97% of the state. It isn't and it never will be the first language. So public communications are intended to well, communicate to the public. Therefore it follows that the primary language on signs and in written communications should be in English. If Irish is needed as well on these, it should be of a secondary nature.

There is a need to have a referendum on this article and reverse this point of primacy for Gaeilge. It was never more than aspirational, just like many parts of the constitution. I very much doubt that the drafters ever intended for it to used to impose a regime on the vast majority.

Watch this space, I predict we'll see a gathering kickback against this implementation of the Official Languages Act.

I have no doubt you have a higher degree of fluency than me, as that wouldn't be hard. As noted above cannot speak a word.

I genuinely cannot remember a single instance on my life when my lack of Irish has caused me a problem, and I've always got the impression that despite what the constitution says, in practice English is very much the primary language In Ireland. Certainly cannot see that this is under threat.

[knownunknown]

Unfortunately, our flag has always been divisive! Republicans hijacked it for years. I actually think it would be a good thing if everyone embraced our flag, many nationalities have great pride in their flag, if like to see that here. And our language likewise. I remember as a child being in Wales and hearing Welsh being spoken, funnily I could recognise some words as like Irish and some as like french ( to my mind) it actually awakened a massive interest in languages in me. I worked with a man who didn't speak English until he went to school, a native Irish speaker, you could hear it when he spoke English.
I'm rambling! Basically I believe our language should be given every opportunity to flourish

Irish was rammed down everyone’s throat at school yet we all don’t speak a word of it. If that isn’t a chance to flourish then what is? I remember a kid from England who came to my school and got to sit out during Irish class and do other work and he was the envy of the school.

Most people, I’d guess given the choice from an early age, would choose English because they get to converse with, work and live in large parts of the world.

[NewBroom]

Some discussion with Connolly this morning on RTE radio re possible changes to our constitution in the event of a border poll.

Wouldn't that be fine, we the citizens of 2037 or whenever will get the chance to rid ourselves of some of the shackles imposed by Dev and his pals in 1937.

And we can be sure that Article 8 will be well up there. I can't see our Unionist friends stomaching a situation where Irish is given primacy over Hiberno English. I'd be thinking that instead English will be listed as the first official language. And that other languages like Irish, Scots, Polish, Ukrainian, Chinese whatever will be recognised as secondary languages. That'd be proper order.

[NattyO]

Some discussion with Connolly this morning on RTE radio re possible changes to our constitution in the event of a border poll.

Wouldn't that be fine, we the citizens of 2037 or whenever will get the chance to rid ourselves of some of the shackles imposed by Dev and his pals in 1937.

And we can be sure that Article 8 will be well up there. I can't see our Unionist friends stomaching a situation where Irish is given primacy over Hiberno English. I'd be thinking that instead English will be listed as the first official language. And that other languages like Irish, Scots, Polish, Ukrainian, Chinese whatever will be recognised as secondary languages. That'd be proper order.

At the rate we’re going, Arabic will be the official language by 2037.

[Belladonna]

I like the cupla focal as much as anyone and I'd even take a bet that I have a higher degree of fluency that some commenting above.

But again you choose to miss the point. I have no problem at all with gaeilge in Gaeltacht areas, I'd even be happy to see it made compulsory there. I have no problem at all with others outside Gaeltacht regions wishing to do their business through Irish when they deal with a public body, say social welfare or planning. All for it, in their own private time.

But..... 97% of the state is not a Gaeltacht and in this 97% of the state Hiberno English is the principal language. And I do object to the increasingly successful attempts by the Irish language lobby to use Article 8 to make Irish the first language in this 97% of the state. It isn't and it never will be the first language. So public communications are intended to well, communicate to the public. Therefore it follows that the primary language on signs and in written communications should be in English. If Irish is needed as well on these, it should be of a secondary nature.

There is a need to have a referendum on this article and reverse this point of primacy for Gaeilge. It was never more than aspirational, just like many parts of the constitution. I very much doubt that the drafters ever intended for it to used to impose a regime on the vast majority.

Watch this space, I predict we'll see a gathering kickback against this implementation of the Official Languages Act.

Fair enough, but "Language fascists" probably isn't the most ideal way of titleing the thread! What about in school? I don't think it should be mandatory for the LC (but I don't think any subject should be mandatory for it) however I think it should be taught up to JC.

[ceannairceach]

At the rate we’re going, Arabic will be the official language by 2037.

Along with Halal meat only for schools, hospitals and government buildings.

If it’s not already.

[NewBroom]

Fair enough, but "Language fascists" probably isn't the most ideal way of titleing the thread! What about in school? I don't think it should be mandatory for the LC (but I don't think any subject should be mandatory for it) however I think it should be taught up to JC.

Agreed, named on spur of the moment with that crowd marching and looking to hoover up more public funding to keep them in their cushy jobs. 'Language Zealots' might be better term.

To wit, I have a bit of a grá myself for the language and fully agree that a subject like 'Irish Studies' should be core syllabus in primary schools and up to Junior Cert. And study optional after that.

What I object to are the language zealots who are using an aspirational clause of the 1937 constitution to impose Gaeilge as the primary language on everyone else in terms of public services and communications, whether we want it or not.

[NattyO]

Agreed, named on spur of the moment with that crowd marching and looking to hoover up more public funding to keep them in their cushy jobs. 'Language Zealots' might be better term.

To wit, I have a bit of a grá myself for the language and fully agree that a subject like 'Irish Studies' should be core syllabus in primary schools and up to Junior Cert. And study optional after that.

What I object to are the language zealots who are using an aspirational clause of the 1937 constitution to impose Gaeilge as the primary language on everyone else in terms of public services and communications, whether we want it or not.

Irish Studies would be a great subject to have on the curriculum. The French are excellent at teaching kids about France and the French way of thinking - philosophy is taught in every school and is compulsory in the terminale (like leaving cert year). We could teach Irish with a bit of Irish history, Irish culture, etc.
No way the loons running the Irish education system would allow it though - much better to teach the 72 genders, and why being gay is fun.