Language Fascists

[Bubblypop]

Agreed, named on spur of the moment with that crowd marching and looking to hoover up more public funding to keep them in their cushy jobs. 'Language Zealots' might be better term.

To wit, I have a bit of a grá myself for the language and fully agree that a subject like 'Irish Studies' should be core syllabus in primary schools and up to Junior Cert. And study optional after that.

What I object to are the language zealots who are using an aspirational clause of the 1937 constitution to impose Gaeilge as the primary language on everyone else in terms of public services and communications, whether we want it or not.

If imposing means that we see the Irish language written down everywhere, good. So it should be. If it means announcements are made in English and as gaelge, good. So it should be.
Seeing or hearing a different language to the one you speak is no skin of anyone's nose. Does no harm, and possibly a lot of good.

[DJP]

If imposing means that we see the Irish language written down everywhere, good. So it should be. If it means announcements are made in English and as gaelge, good. So it should be.
Seeing or hearing a different language to the one you speak is no skin of anyone's nose. Does no harm, and possibly a lot of good.

Irony (this being a new online political forum where most users post anonymously) aside - I think there is huge unrealism in Ireland in relation to the language although I don't think this extends to everyone.

I agree with your point here. I support the Official Languages Act 2003 / OLA and most (not all) of the provisions in it. I think Irish language / bilingual Irish-English signage is great when it is done right. I support the bilingual annoucements on public transport. I agree with there being Irish-language versions of basic state forms and Irish-language versions of State websites and at least a couple of social media posts as Gaeilge by state orgs on social media (Facebook and X spring to mind to me the most here) every day.

On the other hand I think that most state annual reports should not be translated to Irish given the cost of them and that most of them time hardly anybody if anybody reads them. That said with AI like ChatGPT and Google Translate - I have even heard from one of the leading teachers of Irish language adult classes in the country that the latter is right most (not all) of the time for translations nowadays too - I could well imagine most translators for all languages going out of business in the not-too-distant future with the area becoming even more niche and simply a core of translators for all languages remaining for proof reading AI translations. The techology may already be ready for this but I don't know the employment arrangements of all translators with State and EU organisations although I think that a lot at least of the work is freelance.

I believe that no more than 1% of the population of the state and island are daily/regular Irish speakers outside of the education system. 1% of the population of the island is around 70 thousand people. I would even guess that the number is less than 1%. In all State official stats for years now the figure is given as 3%.

I have a couple of other more I think interesting points to make but I will post them later if there is much engagement/interesting engagement.

[DJP]

By the way my initial instinct is reluctance to post on a thread using the word "fascists" in an Irish context as per the title of the thread but I do think there is a large dose of forcing the language on people in Ireland. I can think of 4 bigs ways where, I believe, more people would welcome the end of these policies as distinct from being in favour of them continuing - Compulsory Irish for the Leaving Cert.; Irish being a 'working' language of the EU (i.e. EU institutions); the 20% recruitment policy in the civil service/public sector; and the translation of all state annual reports.

[NewBroom]

By the way my initial instinct is reluctance to post on a thread using the word "fascists" in an Irish context as per the title of the thread but I do think there is a large dose of forcing the language on people in Ireland. I can think of 4 bigs ways where, I believe, more people would welcome the end of these policies as distinct from being in favour of them continuing - Compulsory Irish for the Leaving Cert.; Irish being a 'working' language of the EU (i.e. EU institutions); the 20% recruitment policy in the civil service/public sector; and the translation of all state annual reports.

I quite agree DJP and I've no objection at all if the Site Admin wishes to change the title of the thread. As it is a subject that is worthy of more thought and debate and one with consequences down the road.

As regards the Official Languages Act 2003, I have read the legislation fairly thoroughly. I am quite in agreement with it's general thrust that those who live in Gaeltacht areas and others outside, who wish to conduct their business with the state as gaeilge should be able to do so.

The issue I observe is that the office of An Coimisinéir Teanga has sought to take these obligations in the OLA and turbo charge them with Article 8 of the constitution. Thus justifying an order to all parts of the public services that all public communications and signs, announcements and so on must be in Irish FIRST and of at least Equal Prominence. Thus radically affecting public communications across the entire other 98% who don't use Irish as a first language. This is not envisaged in the OLA 2003, it has been shoehorned on the quiet by the Irish language lobby and there has been little or no buy in sought from the populace as a whole.

I live in rural area and it doesn't affect me much on a daily basis but I was up in Dublin recently and was quite surprised at the changes implemented in the last couple of years. I took a Dublin Bus, the timetable on the bus stop was all in Irish names of streets and stops when I looked. When the bus came, the destination on the front was in Irish. I knew the bus number and where I was going but God help any tourists we take into our capital city with their Lonely Planet books and apps. And how do ordinary citizens who are challenged in linguistic matters manage? I looked at one of those street information signs, all Irish in big lettering on top with an English version below.

I am not anti Irish in a million years but this has gone too far and without the public being asked if this is what we wanted.

[Bubblypop]

I quite agree DJP and I've no objection at all if the Site Admin wishes to change the title of the thread. As it is a subject that is worthy of more thought and debate and one with consequences down the road.

As regards the Official Languages Act 2003, I have read the legislation fairly thoroughly. I am quite in agreement with it's general thrust that those who live in Gaeltacht areas and others outside, who wish to conduct their business with the state as gaeilge should be able to do so.

The issue I observe is that the office of An Coimisinéir Teanga has sought to take these obligations in the OLA and turbo charge them with Article 8 of the constitution. Thus justifying an order to all parts of the public services that all public communications and signs, announcements and so on must be in Irish FIRST and of at least Equal Prominence. Thus radically affecting public communications across the entire other 98% who don't use Irish as a first language. This is not envisaged in the OLA 2003, it has been shoehorned on the quiet by the Irish language lobby and there has been little or no buy in sought from the populace as a whole.

I live in rural area and it doesn't affect me much on a daily basis but I was up in Dublin recently and was quite surprised at the changes implemented in the last couple of years. I took a Dublin Bus, the timetable on the bus stop was all in Irish names of streets and stops when I looked. When the bus came, the destination on the front was in Irish. I knew the bus number and where I was going but God help any tourists we take into our capital city with their Lonely Planet books and apps. And how do ordinary citizens who are challenged in linguistic matters manage? I looked at one of those street information signs, all Irish in big lettering on top with an English version below.

I am not anti Irish in a million years but this has gone too far and without the public being asked if this is what we wanted.

I imagine tourists manage the same way English speaking tourists manage in non English speaking countries.
I'm not sure how having the English language directly below the Irish language would cause any issues at all.

[DJP]

As regards the Official Languages Act 2003, I have read the legislation fairly thoroughly. I am quite in agreement with it's general thrust that those who live in Gaeltacht areas and others outside, who wish to conduct their business with the state as gaeilge should be able to do so.

The issue I observe is that the office of An Coimisinéir Teanga has sought to take these obligations in the OLA and turbo charge them with Article 8 of the constitution. Thus justifying an order to all parts of the public services that all public communications and signs, announcements and so on must be in Irish FIRST and of at least Equal Prominence. Thus radically affecting public communications across the entire other 98% who don't use Irish as a first language. This is not envisaged in the OLA 2003, it has been shoehorned on the quiet by the Irish language lobby and there has been little or no buy in sought from the populace as a whole.

I live in rural area and it doesn't affect me much on a daily basis but I was up in Dublin recently and was quite surprised at the changes implemented in the last couple of years. I took a Dublin Bus, the timetable on the bus stop was all in Irish names of streets and stops when I looked. When the bus came, the destination on the front was in Irish. I knew the bus number and where I was going but God help any tourists we take into our capital city with their Lonely Planet books and apps. And how do ordinary citizens who are challenged in linguistic matters manage? I looked at one of those street information signs, all Irish in big lettering on top with an English version below.

I am not anti Irish in a million years but this has gone too far and without the public being asked if this is what we wanted.

You must not have read the act very thoroughly whatever about fairly thorougly. The Coimisinéir Teanga is not "turbo charge(ing)" the act. All the provisions about signage and communications are in the 2003 act. And you are actually the first person I have ever heard who has made a connection between the act and Article 8 of the constitution. Nobody really I believes takes the latter seriously including Irsh speakers.

As far as I know, in relation to the rest of your post, all signage like with Dubiin Bus is bilingual. From what I can see the Engish language placenames is usually written in a bigger or more bold type than the Irish on the front of Dublin buses. If it was the other way around, or even as you said only in Irish, there would be an outcry.

Mistakes do happen across the public sector of course and e.g. Sarah Carey wrote a column in The Indo a few months back about Irish-only signage on the the DART but such Irish-only signage is not part of the OLA. The OLA is short for Official Languages Act not Official Language Act.

[NewBroom]

You must not have read the act very thoroughly whatever about fairly thorougly. The Coimisinéir Teanga is not "turbo charge(ing)" the act. All the provisions about signage and communications are in the 2003 act. And you are actually the first person I have ever heard who has made a connection between the act and Article 8 of the constitution. Nobody really I believes takes the latter seriously including Irsh speakers.

Read the OLA 2003 and it's amending Act. Look up the sections that relate to public signage, there's not much in it. It's mainly geared towards provision for the language in Gaeltacht areas. No argument there. The extension of these provisions is not envisaged for non Gaeltacht areas in the OLA 2003. Yet in practice, they are coming into effect in that an Irish form must be given for every English form. The turbo charging is arising as the language movement is using An Coimisinéir Teanga to direct that according to the constitution that the Irish form must come first. And be of equal size at least. Everywhere.

If we ever get to a border poll, this matter has potential to be very troublesome. I would expect that any new overarching constitution will have to reflect the overall linguistic culture of the island and that English for better or worse will have to be the primary language with others as secondary. Which matter will be blown out of all proportion. If the government had any foresight at all in these matters, they would seek to reign in An Coimisinéir Teanga and advise them to keep their gaze on Gaeltacht areas primarily.

[DJP]

Read the OLA 2003 and it's amending Act. Look up the sections that relate to public signage, there's not much in it. It's mainly geared towards provision for the language in Gaeltacht areas. No argument there. The extension of these provisions is not envisaged for non Gaeltacht areas in the OLA 2003. Yet in practice, they are coming into effect in that an Irish form must be given for every English form. The turbo charging is arising as the language movement is using An Coimisinéir Teanga to direct that according to the constitution that the Irish form must come first. And be of equal size at least. Everywhere.

If we ever get to a border poll, this matter has potential to be very troublesome. I would expect that any new overarching constitution will have to reflect the overall linguistic culture of the island and that English for better or worse will have to be the primary language with others as secondary. Which matter will be blown out of all proportion. If the government had any foresight at all in these matters, they would seek to reign in An Coimisinéir Teanga and advise them to keep their gaze on Gaeltacht areas primarily.

The OLA going back to the year it came in in 2003 was always about national state services, never just the Gaeltacht.

Contrary to what I said in my last post it could I suppose be accepted that the Coimisinéir Teanga is turbo-charging the act - but not in the way you think he is.

He/his office only act on complaints made to him/them. There could be a mispelt sign erected somewhere in Ireland tomorrow and unless a complaint is made about it to his office he/his office is not going to take it up.

Do you have any evidence / can you quote where in the OLA it says that the act is "mainly geared towards provision for the language in Gaeltacht areas" and not the country / state in general?

[Irish History]

I see the language fascists are on the march in Dublin, demanding their rights.

Let's remind ourselves that daily speakers as gaeilge are tiny in number, maybe 3% at most.

But everywhere you go now, Irish is in your face, you can't avoid it. Every piece of state literature, on the buses, the trains, the signage. And not only is Irish on them, it's always at the top or in front.

The language fascists not only want more funding to support their cushy jobs. But increasingly they want to shove the language in front of the other 95%+ whether we like it or not.

That's because we are Irish and this is Ireland.

Not all of us are one of England's Irish bitches - some of us have a patriotic bone in our bodies.

[Irish History]

By the way my initial instinct is reluctance to post on a thread using the word "fascists" in an Irish context as per the title of the thread but I do think there is a large dose of forcing the language on people in Ireland. I can think of 4 bigs ways where, I believe, more people would welcome the end of these policies as distinct from being in favour of them continuing - Compulsory Irish for the Leaving Cert.; Irish being a 'working' language of the EU (i.e. EU institutions); the 20% recruitment policy in the civil service/public sector; and the translation of all state annual reports.

You believe that because, why???

The way to get Irish people to speak their own native language is to give them incentives - like an Garda Síochána get for being a Guard - Credit Union, etc.

If there is extra money in it for people, or less taxes/interest on loans to pay, you will find Irish will soon become the working language.

It's not rocket science - it would be a reversal of the exact reason why Irish people stopped speaking Irish in favour of foreign English in the first instance.

[DJP]

I want Irish to be a big and normally / commonly spoken language in all/most contexts in Ireland. The policies I mentioned are counterproductive when it comes to normality.

[Irish History]

I want Irish to be a big and normally spoken language in Ireland. The policies I mentioned are counterproductive when it comes to normality.

In what way are the policies counterproductive - surely it is better for our native Irish language and the psyche of the Irish people to promote Irish in every way possible?

What is not normal for Irish people is to treat our own native language the same as a foreign language.

[DJP]

The Irish-language/Irish-speaking "world" is too extremely weak for many Gaeilgeoirí and politicans to go around playing the tough guys on the language. The core is not big or strong enough aka there are not many Irish-speakers in Ireland so I believe a large dose of humility is needed in a lot of ways by Irish speakers and politicians on the language. The policies I mentioned are 180 degrees opposed to such humility.

[Irish History]

The Irish-language/Irish-speaking "world" is too extremely weak for many Gaeilgeoirí and politicans to go around playing the tough guys on the language. The core is not big or strong enough aka there are not many Irish-speakers in Ireland so I believe a large dose of humility is needed in a lot of ways by Irish speakers and politicians on the language. The policies I mentioned are 180 degrees opposed to such humility.

And weaker it will get if it is not made an important issue - therefore all the more reason to promote Irish in every way possible. We should not stop compulsory Irish for the Leaving Cert and Irish being a 'working' language of the EU and the 20 percent recruitment policy in the civil service/public sector and the translation of all state annual reports.

The Irish people who can speak their own native language should be rewarded, then it might dawn on other people that maybe they should learn to speak Irish because it is worth it financially.

The way to get Irish people to speak their own native language is to give them incentives - like an Garda Síochána get for being a Guard - Credit Union, etc. If there is extra money in it for people, or less taxes/interest on loans to pay, you will find Irish will soon become the working language.

It's not rocket science - it would be a reversal of the exact reason why Irish people stopped speaking Irish in favour of foreign English in the first instance.

What's with the humility - why be modest about the importance of our own native language??? We should be pumping money and resources into the Gaeltacht - opening new factories and build houses so Irish speakers can live and work and bring up their children in the Gaeltacht and expand the Gaeltacht.

Let all of Ireland become the Gaeltacht.

[Dubit10]

You'd have to encourage people financially to speak Irish if you want an improvement. I don't know maybe a test that you pass every 5 years and you get 10% off your yearly tax bill or some mad scheme like that otherwise there isn't a hope in hell for the language.

[DJP]

Let all of Ireland become the Gaeltacht.

I agree but I for one would prefer to enjoy the process and am not going to partake as much in the journey if I don't enjoy the process.

[NewBroom]

And weaker it will get if it is not made an important issue - therefore all the more reason to promote Irish in every way possible. We should not stop compulsory Irish for the Leaving Cert ..... Let all of Ireland become the Gaeltacht.

LOL - a prime case of language fascism! There isn't a snowballs chance in hell that gaeilge will ever become the first language of choice & use on the island. It's pure head in the stratosphere stuff. As it is, we all know the language primarily still exists due to state supports and intervention. Extra points, extra grants, jobs for the buachaillí and cailíní. It's the tax payers money that supports the language and that's it.

And insofar as that goes, it's tolerated by the rest of society at large. We can all have a nice warm green feeling, learn the cupla focail in school, then forget it, but tick the box on the census. But put it front & centre on all public communications and public signs and you'll feel the kickback soon enough. Not many have copped on yet as it's creeping in bit by bit, but soon the citizens at large will wake up and start demanding change to this regime.

My point still stands that successive governments have taken their eye off the ball here and this will cause a lot of difficulty in the event of any campaign for a border poll.

We're not getting closer to Dev's vision - we're further away month by month with changing demographics and cultures.

All Ireland will never be a Gaeltacht, at best there'll be clubs and places can meet to share a hobby interest in gaeilge, just like people meet up to play the ukulele.

[DJP]

But put it front & centre on all public communications and public signs and you'll feel the kickback soon enough. Not many have copped on yet as it's creeping in bit by bit, but soon the citizens at large will wake up and start demanding change to this regime.

I didn't read most of IH's post but the job of having a bilingual state in terms of signage is I would say (although I haven't analysed it mathematically) around 75% completed outside of main road signage.

[DJP]

And by the way NB I have interviewed Éamon Ó Cuív a couple of times over the years on community radio on the OLA and I am under the impression that his rationale in ensuring that the Irish language is printed on top of signage was not due to article 8 of the constitution but rather that if this wasn't included in the legislation that the default decision taken by most people in the civil service/public sector when making signage decisions would have been to have Irish printed second/in a less prominent way in general to the English words.

[Irish History]

LOL - a prime case of language fascism!

The only one behaving like a Language Fascist is you - dictating to others that Irish will never regain its status as the working language of Ireland.

It can and it will if Irish people are given incentives to speak it. The reason Irish people stopped speaking Irish is because the were given incentives to speak foreign English.

Finland revived its native language as the working language of that country in the 1920's - Ireland can too.

[Irish History]

on the island.

If by "island" you mean Ireland - why not write Ireland???

[Irish History]

And insofar as that goes, it's tolerated by the rest of society at large. We can all have a nice warm green feeling, learn the cupla focail in school, then forget it, but tick the box on the census. But put it front & centre on all public communications and public signs and you'll feel the kickback soon enough. Not many have copped on yet as it's creeping in bit by bit, but soon the citizens at large will wake up and start demanding change to this regime.

You are deluded if you truly believe there will be "kickback" over Irish being front and centre.

As for "regime" and "creeping in" - have some respect for Ireland and the patriotic Irish people who love the native language.

Just so you know, Irish is the first language of Ireland and rightly so - according to the Constitution (Article 8), Irish is the first official language and English is the second, and in the event of a conflict between the enrolled texts, the Irish language text prevails.

[Irish History]

My point still stands that successive governments have taken their eye off the ball here and this will cause a lot of difficulty in the event of any campaign for a border poll.

We're not getting closer to Dev's vision - we're further away month by month with changing demographics and cultures.

What difficulty when we vote to reunify our country would that be???

New foreign demographics/new cultures could be a problem, but not necessarily so.

RE: de Valera's vision - according to a document I read, the Free State set up a working committee with Pearse's sister as chair to look into using Irish as the working language in the State, but the committee reported that if that were to happen, it would make reunification of our country more difficult.
That is why Irish has been in a Holding Position - that will change. I do not believe that will be an issue when Irish people north and south vote to reunify Ireland anymore - we Irish have the numbers in the north now.

Just last night in Belfast - once a bastion of Unionism in Ireland, the Council voted to put Irish on Council trucks/uniforms etc. and to put Irish on all signs. The likes of you would call them language fascists also.

[Irish History]

All Ireland will never be a Gaeltacht, at best there'll be clubs and places can meet to share a hobby interest in gaeilge, just like people meet up to play the ukulele.

Again with your dictating. You do not know that.

Irish can be revived as the living language of Ireland - Irish people will speak their own native language when they are given incentives - like an Garda Síochána get for being a Guard - Credit Union, etc.

If there is extra money in it for people, or less taxes/interest on loans to pay, you will find Irish will soon become the working language.

Irish people who can speak their own native language should be rewarded, then it might dawn on other people that maybe they should learn to speak Irish because it is worth it financially.

It's not rocket science - it would be a reversal of the exact reason why Irish people stopped speaking Irish in favour of foreign English in the first instance.

[knownunknown]

You are deluded if you truly believe there will be "kickback" over Irish being upfront and centre.

As for "regime" and "creeping in" - have some respect for Ireland and the patriotic Irish people who love the native language.

Just so you know, Irish is the first language of Ireland and rightly so - according to the Constitution (Article 8), Irish is the first official language and English is the second, and in the event of a conflict between the enrolled texts, the Irish language text prevails.

You seem to love the native language, why aren’t you speaking it? Why am I reading this post in English? You don’t even offer the option of an Irish translation. I suppose there is no need to appeal to the already converted!